Oh, oh!
Evidence of meeting #112 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was third.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #112 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was third.
A recording is available from Parliament.
7:45 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
7:45 p.m.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON
I was just reading from the Liberals' campaign literature from the last election. I'll share it with you after.
7:45 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
7:45 p.m.
General Counsel and Senior Director, Legal Services, Office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections
I think the courts have been very careful in excluding typical political spin from what is captured by section 91. They require a very high threshold, and it's totally incompatible with the role of an MP.
7:45 p.m.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON
Okay.
As I understand it, you are suggesting we add essentially if we make suggestions about somebody's attitudes, a suggestion that a person is essentially guilty of not exactly hate speech but of having the kinds of attitudes that would lead them to do it: Scott Reid is a racist and a sexist; he fundamentally hates—whatever; fill in the blank. This is where the issue arises.
7:45 p.m.
General Counsel and Senior Director, Legal Services, Office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections
I think it would be to that level or it could be even a little higher. I will quote the wording the committee endorsed, “Views or behaviours fundamentally inconsistent with what is generally expected of an elected official, or feelings of hatred, contempt for or deep-rooted prejudice against an identifiable group”.
7:45 p.m.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON
That's what we recommended.
First of all, do you have suggested wording that ought to be used? This is not legislative language. You wouldn't have much time, but if you could get back to us, it would be helpful.
7:50 p.m.
General Counsel and Senior Director, Legal Services, Office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections
Probably the drafters at Justice would be helpful in that sense. We can definitely look at it and try to suggest something to the committee.
June 6th, 2018 / 7:50 p.m.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON
Looking at that—I'm commenting on our own report— I think two different things are being addressed there. “Views or behaviours fundamentally inconsistent with what is generally expected of an elected official,” is one thought, and “or feelings of hatred, contempt, or deep-rooted prejudice against an identifiable group”....
The first is fuzzier. I have to admit I have some reservations myself about that. The second one is very clear. Seriously, I think in our society that saying someone is a racist is seen as being a greater slight against them than saying they are an axe murderer. It's easier to say, without any proof, that is a more effective way of destroying them. We have some definitions of an “identifiable group” that link back to the Human Rights Act and the Charter of Rights. That strikes me as very clear, and that deals with a very effective kind of potential propaganda to be used. That's the one we should concentrate on.
Thank you very much.
I want to ask you as well about the practicality of trying to implement some of these things. You mentioned provincial models that had been used. You said that some provinces require third parties to provide a telephone number or address for their tag line and that the committee might wish to consider requiring this of third parties. How successful has this been in provincial elections? Have they achieved a high level of compliance, to your knowledge?
7:50 p.m.
General Counsel and Senior Director, Legal Services, Office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections
I must confess, I don't have an answer on this.
I'll note, though, that in the Ontario general election that's happening right now, some members might have seen an article online on CBC today saying that there are some unregistered third parties that are carrying out online advertising with names that are generic, that don't really identify the group. People are wondering who these people are. There are no leads in how to start even reaching out to them just to make sure they do register if they have reached the $500 threshold.
7:50 p.m.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
I may have missed this and my apologies if I did, but do you have powers with respect to investigating on social media? Is there enough in the bill to allow you those powers if groups...?
We have certain rules around newspapers, so-called traditional media, but very few rules...none, really.
7:50 p.m.
General Counsel and Senior Director, Legal Services, Office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections
The provisions of the act as they are drafted apply to online advertising the same way as they apply to any other type of advertising.
7:50 p.m.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
In your office, do you feel that you have the expertise and power to trace, for example, as you said, in the Ontario election, a shell group that is promoting some party or ideology?
7:50 p.m.
General Counsel and Senior Director, Legal Services, Office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections
Yes. There's actually a provision in the act and in the Criminal Code. Our investigators are public officers for the purpose of obtaining search warrants or production orders to advance our investigations.
7:50 p.m.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
What do you do with that when it's an ISP address, when it's a foreign-based entity?
7:50 p.m.
General Counsel and Senior Director, Legal Services, Office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections
Yes. If it's a foreign-based entity, it could raise problems. Again, we might have to resort to an MLAT in order to obtain the information.
7:50 p.m.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Can you go after the platforms on which these things spread, the social media platforms, for example? If somebody is out...they are foreign-based. You're limited. They're in Russia. You can't go after them.
Is there enough in the act right now to allow you to say to the social media agents that they're spreading misinformation, disinformation, and all of that?
7:50 p.m.
General Counsel and Senior Director, Legal Services, Office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections
With respect to social media platforms, we have, and we started that even before the last general election. We've reached out to many of them and received their co-operation in a lot of ways.
7:50 p.m.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Is it voluntary co-operation right now, or is it under the law?
7:50 p.m.
General Counsel and Senior Director, Legal Services, Office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections
It is, but it's also the courts. The British Columbia Court of Appeal relatively recently decided that a Canadian production order could be enforced to obtain information that's kept outside of the country if there's somebody in Canada, a person or an office in Canada, for that group.
In other words, Facebook has an office in Canada, so we can serve our production order to—
7:50 p.m.
General Counsel and Senior Director, Legal Services, Office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections
—Facebook Canada.
