Evidence of meeting #124 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was election.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jean-François Morin  Senior Policy Advisor, Privy Council Office
Stephanie Kusie  Calgary Midnapore, CPC
Manon Paquet  Senior Policy Advisor, Privy Council Office
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Philippe Méla

12:30 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

I'm thinking of them together, and I'll speak to them together. Is the intention of CPC-67 and CPC-65 to prohibit businesses that are only established in Canada with the primary role of trying to influence voters, and then extending a prohibition to those business into the pre-election period in terms of spending? Is that what I understand?

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

That's my understanding.

12:30 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Okay, that seems like a good idea. We are trying to get at the foreign influence question.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Are there any comments from the officials or the government?

Mr. Bittle, go ahead.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON

We appreciate the spirit of the amendment coming forward. The problem or the concern is that once we move further away from election day, the risks under section 2 of the charter increase dramatically. That's our concern with this.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Mr. Morin, go ahead.

12:30 p.m.

LCdr Jean-François Morin

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would also like to note that the prohibition found at proposed subsection 282.4(1) is related to “influenc[ing] an elector to vote or refrain from voting, or to vote or refrain from voting for a particular candidate or registered party, at the election”.

This specific prohibition was crafted to apply only during an election period. It's only from day one of the election period that an elector can actually cast a ballot. This motion would potentially create an enforcement problem with regard to the pre-election period, because electors don't have an ability to vote during that period.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Mr. Nater is next, then Mr. Cullen.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

Just as a corollary to that, if it's impossible to influence a vote, I'm curious as to why there are pre-writ spending limits for political parties? If it's impossible to influence a vote during the pre-writ period, why do we have limits for political parties in those pre-writ periods? It just seems to be at odds there. We have one but not the other. If it's impossible to influence them, why are we preventing that?

12:35 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

What are we doing? Is this an existential question?

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

It is, yes. It's not rhetorical.

12:35 p.m.

LCdr Jean-François Morin

The spending limit that would be applicable during the pre-election period is only on partisan advertising for registered parties, and partisan advertising, partisan activities and election surveys for third parties. It's not on the entire scope of expenses.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Mr. Cullen, go ahead.

12:35 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

First, to Mr. Bittle's concern, the pre-election spending limits, which have been struck down in B.C., at least, were for Canadian and Canadian-based outfits. I don't know if we've taken it to the Supreme Court yet, if it's been tested there. What I understand is that the attempt here is to seek to limit the influence during the pre-election period of businesses that are established within Canada only for the purpose of trying to influence electors.

It holds with what John said. If we put restrictions on political parties and third parties in the pre-election period, clearly there are votes at play, whether the ballots have been issued or not. I assume that's why the Liberals created the pre-election period at all—to recognize when the election truly starts. It's not when the writ drops.

If I'm reading the language correctly, this restriction here is on businesses whose primary purpose in Canada during an election period is to influence electors during that period. If there is any contemplation of foreign influence playing a role in our elections—which there ought to be, considering recent examples in the U.K., the U.S. and others—I suppose this one falls within the scope of “Try it”.

Someone may attempt to strike it down in court, but the intention seems pretty straightforward. We've already essentially broken the seal on the pre-election notion with this whole bill. Voters are at play in the pre-writ period. Why not restrict businesses whose sole purpose in the country—again, back to the legislative amendment line—is to try to influence voters? Those would be the ones I'd want to limit the most, frankly.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Mr. Morin, are you saying there would be an enforcement problem with it?

12:35 p.m.

LCdr Jean-François Morin

Yes, the enforcement problem is related to the fact that the prohibition really is on unduly influencing an elector to vote or refrain from voting, or vote or refrain from voting for a particular candidate at the election.

I'm just saying that during the pre-election period, the writs have not been issued and it would be difficult to interpret the change in the context of this prohibition during the pre-election period.

12:35 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

To go back to my point, though, if an attack comes from wherever saying, “Don't vote for Mr. Bittle; he's going to be on the ballot”, we would see that as an attempt to influence before the ballot has been issued. What's the difference?

In terms of enforcement, if this were law and someone tried to do that, then we would prohibit that action. I don't see the enforcement problem. Just because we're not in the writ period, if somebody is trying to influence a voter to vote for or against a certain candidate.... That is the pre-writ period. It's exactly what's happening.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Mr. Nater, go ahead.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

I'll just follow up on the concern about a charter challenge that Mr. Bittle was talking about.

I'm not a lawyer, so I don't admit to knowing exactly how this works, but in proposed section 282.4 undue influence refers to “an individual who is not a Canadian citizen or a permanent resident...and who does not reside in Canada”; a corporation that does not operate in Canada; “a trade union that does not hold bargaining rights...in Canada”; “a foreign political party”; or “a foreign government or an agent or mandatary of a foreign government”.

My understanding is that these foreign entities don't hold charter rights, so I'm not sure how that would be considered a challenge under the charter.

Could our officials comment on whether that would be a challenge to the charter?

12:35 p.m.

LCdr Jean-François Morin

Sorry, could you repeat that specific question?

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

The section on undue influence talks about foreign governments, foreign political parties. Would they hold charter rights within Canada and would they be able to challenge this under the charter?

12:35 p.m.

LCdr Jean-François Morin

I won't answer that question. That would be a question for the Department of Justice.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

What if they have a presence in Canada?

12:40 p.m.

LCdr Jean-François Morin

The question of the extraterritoriality of application of the charter is quite debatable. Of course, a person, including a company, who has a presence in Canada would have charter rights. But for a company or a person who is outside Canada and doesn't have activities in Canada, the charter rights could be more volatile.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

Proposed section 282 refers specifically to those that do not operate within Canada, such as a foreign entity that does not have a presence.