Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Dec. 11th, 2018

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I'm sure it will come.

You're right. What I want is a recurring meeting. I want this to happen again and again. Whether all of us are here or whether none of us is here, next Parliament, PROC needs to sit down with this group at least once or twice a year and ask where we are and how it is going, to catch things before they become a problem, instead of saying, “Oh, look. We missed that seven years ago,” which is what I think is going to happen with West Block when we move there in a few weeks.

Mr. Christopherson, you have talked about public consultations. We would do it for an intersection in a town.

[David Christopherson]

I was thinking that in my municipal days we wouldn't dare do that to city hall without asking Hamiltonians what they thought.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Exactly.

You were saying we have to talk to security. Do we talk to the union or the management? I will leave that one alone for the moment.

When we closed West Block in 2010, what year did we plan to reopen? Do you remember?

[Rob Wright]

Thank you very much for the question.

If my memory serves—and I was around then—we closed West Block in early 2011. The initial plan, I believe, was 2018, but I would have to go back and look at some documents.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

As a staffer, I was told that it would be back in 2014, possibly 2015. I just want to put that out there.

This is related, but not directly. I think it was in 2012 that the lawn between the Justice Building and the Confederation Building got shut down to the public to build a tunnel between the buildings. It was supposed to take a year. Six years later, that lawn still has not reopened, and as far as I know, we have no access to that tunnel.

Can you address that at all? Are we going to see that kind of problem again up here?

[Susan Kulba]

That tunnel was closed to implement a steam line through it. That work was completed. They are doing a continual program of work on those buildings with recapitalization work, especially on the Confederation Building. PSPC has been using some of that space for a construction yard. Some of the area around the Confederation Building itself is not safe because of the work that's going on above, so that's why it hasn't been reopened. If that work gets completed, then there should be no reason not to open the lawn.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Is it important that we keep the chamber in the same physical shape as it is today, or is this the opportunity to rethink how the chamber is structured? Is that a place we can't go?

[Susan Kulba]

That's the million-dollar question, because our Parliament is still growing and, as you know, in 2015 we had to find a solution for how to fit additional members into that chamber. The chamber itself is of high heritage value, so these are some of the tough questions that we're going to be asking ourselves, and you, in coming up with the solution for those items.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

My last question for the moment, to everybody's relief, will be.... You mentioned in your opening comments that the building wasn't built to the blueprints we have. Can you expand on that? That seems like a very bizarre statement. We have blueprints and architectural plans, and the building doesn't actually match that. Is that correct?

[Susan Kulba]

That is correct. It was constructed over a four-year period, and I think we've talked about the fact that at that time, steel was a new product. It was actually the architect who decided to be a little more innovative, and to start to experiment with some of those materials. Rather than redoing all the plans, they implemented some of those changes on site, and that's what we're left with.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

We're left without documentation.

[Susan Kulba]

That is correct.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Mr. Nater.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I only have a brief question. It has to do with the Peace Tower. I read an article not too long ago that said Dr. McCrady would still be doing carillon concerts for a period of time while this place is under construction. Am I right to assume that at one point the carillon will be silenced? Do we have a time frame on when that would be?

The second point is the Peace Tower flag. I think most Canadians see the flag at the top of the Peace Tower as a very important symbol. I've always loved seeing it fly. Will there come a time when the flag will not be able to fly from the top of the Peace Tower and/or be changed on a daily basis? I think in the U.K., there was a strong public backlash when Big Ben was going to be silenced for a period of time. I think Canadians may have a similar viewpoint if the carillon is silent, and if that flag is no longer flying.

I'm curious about if and when that might happen.

[Susan Kulba]

We're very aware of that. Our intent is to keep the carillon going as long as possible. I'll turn it over to my colleagues about the schedule.

[Rob Wright]

I'll ask Ms. Garrett to maybe add some more detail.

I'll start with the flag. The intent is to really try to keep the flag flying throughout the duration of the entire restoration. There may be a very short period when we may have to replace the flagpole—things like that—but really it would be about keeping the flag flying every day we possibly can for the duration of the restoration.

The carillon is a little more complex, because at this point, part of the scope would be to fully restore the bells. There would be a time when the carillon in the Peace Tower would not be able to operate fully. As Ms. Kulba indicated, we are working to keep that going as long as possible and to have it come back online as quickly as possible.

Jennifer, do you want to add anything?

[Jennifer Garrett]

Thank you.

I would just add that there's a lot of understanding that maintaining a positive visitor experience, for anybody visiting the Hill, is going to be very important during the renovation. To that end, we've actually had some very detailed discussions with our construction manager, PCL/EllisDon, and we have a commitment that the carillon will be able to play up until at least 2022. By that time, we'll have a detailed understanding of our approach to the construction, and we'll be able to provide further information on plans around the carillon.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

I'm wondering this, just as a side point. Last summer, Dr. McCrady was in my riding of Perth—Wellington, in Stratford, for Stratford Summer Music, playing a mobile carillon. Come 2022, perhaps there will be some alternatives for a carillon of some form here on Parliament Hill for that visitors' experience.

That's all I have for now, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Mr. Reid.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Regarding the steel structure and the fact that we don't have accurate drawings of this.... Normally, you have as-built drawings with any engineering or architectural project. Is it the case that these just weren't done, or is it the case that they were done up to the standards of the day, which were different from what they are today?

I assume we can make the assumption that with regard to the recently completed West Block, and any other work going forward, there would be very thorough as-built drawings. I'm sure that our initial plans for West Block were altered at some point, in one or more ways, in the course of construction.

[Rob Wright]

Thank you for the question.

Maybe I'll pass the details over to the architectural team.

For the West Block, I would say that for buildings of this vintage it's not uncommon at all to run into that issue. It's a common issue.

One thing that we've done on the Centre Block to reduce risk on a go-forward basis is to create a building information model. It's a 3-D model of the building, which is really going to facilitate the design work, help the functional programming work and could be a great tool to make visual presentations to parliamentarians about how the building could work in the future. It will also have a great benefit for operations when it comes back online as well.

Of course with the West Block, we've taken great care to ensure that we've not repeated some of the issues of the past, on a go-forward basis.

I'll hand it over to the architectural team to add any more details.

[Duncan Broyd]

On the record of what was built, there's actually incredible, high-definition black and white photography of the construction. Our engineers have a lot of detail of people literally bolting connections together in the steel work. That, in conjunction with the drawings that they do, has allowed them to start the story. The investigations are what complete the story. That deals with the issue here. There are quite good records.

As Mr. Wright said, the building information model, which you are probably aware of from the work that Carleton University did before the project, is something that is being continually built on. We continue to work with Carleton University to refine that model and add new information to it as we go and as we discover things. It's a very complete record of what is here and what is going to be done.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Before we go to Mr. Simms, would anyone who has to leave mind if we stayed a few minutes later for people who want to ask questions? Is that okay?