Procedure and House Affairs Committee on April 2nd, 2019

[Paul Johanis]

No.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

If we try to save the tree, then there might be need for soil remediation.

[Paul Johanis]

Yes, because then what you want to do is give it every chance to survive and every chance to thrive, so you would want to take this opportunity in a way. Now that everything has been cleared out, you can actually do the soil remediation because half the work is done.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Okay, that makes sense. I get that.

I'm sitting here with the 2006 “Site Capacity and Long Term Development Plan” for Parliament Hill. On page 64, the visitor centre is south of Centre Block. The tree is east of Centre Block. I made a point of going there. I've visited that tree many, many times over the years, or passed by casually on my bicycle, walking or driving, but I actually went to look specifically. It's nowhere near the area that is shown as being covered by the visitor centre. These are very sketchy plans, of course, but nonetheless, as far as I know, no one has ever authorized putting this visitor centre under that spot or close enough that the key root structure of the tree.... Perhaps some peripheral roots might have gone that far, but the key roots that are essential for the tree's survival can't possibly be within the space the visitor centre is going to be built on. There must be some other reason why this space is needed. Do you know what that is?

[Paul Johanis]

As I said, there is no public information about phase two of the visitor centre, so I'm in the dark.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Okay.

It did occur to me that, as a practical matter, it might be hard to remove the statue of Sir John A. Macdonald without cutting down the tree in order to get the crane over top. I'm not sure that's literally true, but the thought did occur to me. I'm not asking for a comment on that; I'm just wondering.

With regard to the size and survivability of the tree, are you familiar with the Washington elm in Concord, Massachusetts?

[Paul Johanis]

I've looked at a number of examples of historic elms like this and it's surprising how many you can actually find. Just around the table here there are examples that I could refer to. I have not seen the Washington tree itself, although I think it's in the book on the trees of D.C. I think one of our members has brought that book.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

The reason I mention it is that tree died at around the age of 200, more or less; no one knows exactly when it was planted. It was already a large enough tree that it served as a good spot to commission the American army. Supposedly, during the revolution, the American army was commissioned by George Washington under that already large and majestic tree, which was probably a little under a century old at the time. For that historic reason, there was a desire to preserve it until such time as it died a natural death. For the last part of its life it was struggling—for a number of decades.

After ill health was shown, it managed to survive another 40 or 50 years, suggesting that that possibility exists for this tree, at least potentially. There may be some other reason. It may be that Dutch elm disease, which did not exist at that time, is a more formidable opponent. I throw that out more as a comment than as a question, to say that there are situations where trees that are not in perfect health can survive a fair number of years.

[Paul Johanis]

I think that's a very good comment. Many of these historic trees are in fact braced, trussed and filled in ways that preserve them and keep them alive. They're extraordinary measures, if you will, but people care about and want to have these trees—are awed by these trees—enough that they will take these kinds of measures.

I'm just looking at Ms. Kusie over there. There's a tree in Calgary, I think—the “Stampede” elm—right in the middle of a parking lot.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

It's in Centennial Park, yes.

[Paul Johanis]

It's been kind of kept alive that way. There's other examples like that. The "Comfort" maple near St. Catharines is a huge maple thought to be over 300 years old.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you for recognizing my city as well. I'm very impressed that you would know I'm from there. It means a lot.

[Paul Johanis]

You're welcome.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Thank you. That was very informative.

Over my mantelpiece in my house in Perth is an engraving from the 1870s of Parliament as it was then. I think perhaps it was somewhat idealized. The trees are more mature than they would have been at that time. The image that the original Hill was to have was of a park for the general enjoyment of the citizenry. There was an assumption that it would include more green space and less.... We do have a large lawn that is just grass that gets rolled out on a big roller every year, but that was not the plan.

I don't know if you would agree with me, but I feel that we—with our constant construction and reconstruction up here—have lost sight of something that was part of the original vision for this place, which was to be a sort of arboretum for the people. I think that may have been forgotten.

[Paul Johanis]

I would agree with you. It's for the people locally, but it's also a strong symbol. It's a strong message.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Thank you.

Mr. Garrison.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Could I get you to roll back to the first photo? I think it's quite significant. When you have a look at that photo, what trees do you see? You just see one tree. If our project here is to restore Centre Block, it's not just the building, but it's the site that gives meaning. That tree has stood there almost as long as Centre Block, so I guess I start from a perspective—it's not really a question—in saying we have lost sight of what we're trying to do here when we're focused on the visitor centre rather than the restoration of Centre Block to its former glory and the site that it sits on.

It's not really a question, but maybe you'd also have a comment. Would you agree with me that we're losing sight of something here?

[Paul Johanis]

I certainly agree with you. That northeast quadrant, up until last week, was a green space on Parliament Hill. You're up here all the time and you know that in the summertime it's a pretty impressive place if you're standing in the sun out there. It's nice to be able to get a little bit of shade and go and rest. I think preserving the elm and restoring that green space can be considered a priority.

As I said in my statement, we are dealing with a climate emergency. We need to do every small thing we can and we need to do it as soon as possible—not in 10, 12 or 13 years because we have 10, or 12 or 13 years to actually act. Why not regreen that corner right now?

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

If I understand your presentation and some of the other commentary we've had, even if this tree is unhealthy that doesn't mean it's certainly a dead tree in the short term. It could live a very long time as a less than fully healthy tree, and we can take measures to improve its health, to remediate it.

Is that what you're telling us today?

[Paul Johanis]

Yes. I think only a full assessment of its condition, a complete real general exam with appropriate testing, would answer that question. We just need to take the time, I think, to address that.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Another thing that struck me in your testimony is that I don't believe this project will be done in 10 years. I don't believe it will be done in 12 years. I think it will be a bit longer than that.

When you look at having green space on the Hill, that's a long time that we could invest in planting trees, in remediating this tree, and planting other complementary things on that site.

If we get back to what's our intention here, which is to have that green space, then what you're saying to us is we're throwing away 10 years of progress we could make on regreening that hill?

[Paul Johanis]

Yes, unless assumptions that are currently held about the size and location of the visitor centre are reconsidered, then, yes, that's the case.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Again, as you said, it makes no sense to me that we would not be able to put the visitor centre under that flat grass at the front. I don't know the engineering reasons, but we should at least have a report that tells us whether we could or could not do that before we would begin to consider, in my view, taking apart the green space site there and for 10 years making it inhospitable. It doesn't make any sense to me.

But then I'm from Vancouver Island, and I'm pretty used to citizens chaining themselves to trees to try to preserve them, and I generally am on that side myself.

Are there other examples of this tree anywhere near to the Hill? My understanding is there are not.

[Paul Johanis]

No. This is really the sole survivor. There were many elms on the Hill. I'm old enough to remember that there were elms all along the front right by the walls on the Wellington Street end. At every 50 feet maybe there was a large elm shading the front of the Parliament Buildings, shading Wellington Street.

There's a CBC archive video from 1979 showing the workers cutting down all those elms in the fight against Dutch elm disease. It's a pretty hard video to watch actually. Yes, it's not that long ago there were many significant large elms on the Hill, but this is the only survivor now.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

What you have presented today is I think two things from my point of view. One is there's no need to rush here. We have a 10- to 20-year construction project going on here so there's no need to rush. There are good reasons.... I think you pointed out that there was a visual evaluation of the tree from last September. I remember last September. All of us were a bit wilted and less than fully healthy at that point.

Is there any reason why you can see that we should accept that evaluation as a full evaluation of the tree?