Evidence of meeting #156 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was commissioner.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Matthew Shea  Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office
Allen Sutherland  Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Machinery of Government and Democratic Institutions, Privy Council Office
Andre Barnes  Committee Researcher

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Sure.

With regard to litigation for the debates commission, if the debates commission is involved in litigation, will it be you instructing the lawyers or the debates commissioner himself?

11:50 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office

Matthew Shea

We'd want to confirm the exact legalities. Normally it's the department, which would be the debates commissioner, but I think we can confirm that. I think that what we could say with confidence would be the fact that we would respect the independence of the organization and that every step would be done at arm's length as much as possible.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Okay.

Would they have the opportunity to seek outside counsel if they wished, or would they need to use lawyers who answer to the Attorney General?

11:50 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office

Matthew Shea

I would need to get back to you on the ins and outs of that. I apologize.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Okay.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

11:50 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office

Matthew Shea

Do you know, Allen?

11:50 a.m.

Allen Sutherland Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Machinery of Government and Democratic Institutions, Privy Council Office

Presumably, it would depend on the nature of the litigation.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

We have several minutes left, so I'll give Mr. Graham and Mr. Christopherson, if they want, some very short time.

Mr. Graham.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

That's fine. I don't need a lot. I just want to build on one of John Nater's points.

Would you be disappointed if a party leader declined to send a leader to a debate organized by the commission?

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Karina Gould Liberal Burlington, ON

Again, at this point in time, I think it's very clear why we put the debates commission in place, and it is specifically to address some of the unfortunate circumstances that arose in 2015. However, while 2015 was a moment where it became very clear why the process wasn't working, it's still clear that there were issues with how leaders debates came about previously. This is trying to address some of those challenges and to really state, as I've said on numerous occasions, that this is about the public interest.

I would hope that no leaders would feel like they didn't have to present themselves to Canadians if they were truly seeking to become the prime minister. I think it's a really important piece of how our democracy works and how Canadians engage with political leaders.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Is there anything preventing a future government that says that this whole debates thing is just entirely too democratic from coming along and killing it?

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Karina Gould Liberal Burlington, ON

We did put in place a first step here so that we could evaluate how this process works. The idea is that the commissioner will report back on how it works, how it can be improved and how to make it a more permanent process.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Thank you very much.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Mr. Christopherson.

11:55 a.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Thank you, Chair.

I'm going to take a moment to again be absolutely as crystal clear as I can possibly be on my behalf and on behalf of my caucus and party. The process left a bit to be desired. I have held the government to account as best I can—repeatedly, forcefully and legitimately, I believe. As concurred by Mr. Bittle, it's at least a point of legitimate debate.

We are where we are. The commissioner is acceptable to us and the rules of engagement are acceptable to us. We had no more input as the NDP than the Conservatives did, but we believe this is an important element of our democracy. We were not, as a country, well-served by the processes and antics, and I'm not suggesting that my party is without blame, either.

It behooves all of us to do everything we can to respect and support the debates commission, because it's an important part of our democracy. We've got the example from the U.S. where for the longest time now, it has had an independent commission that conducts its debates. The Americans fight about everything, but I haven't heard anybody suggest that there's unfairness or partisan advantage in their system and process.

My hope is that the commission be successful, that all the party leaders turn out, that Canadians get what they need from the process. I have every confidence that the next Parliament will do its due diligence in terms of holding the government and the commissioner to account for the money they spend, the decisions they make and the procedures they follow.

It would be very disheartening for me—and I'll end on this statement while watching the election unfold that I won't be involved in, at least as a candidate—as one of the debates is whether there's legitimacy around the commission as it provides an exit strategy for one of the party leaders or any of them who don't want to be held to account and be held to the kind of scrutiny that those debates will offer.

We wish the commission well. We look forward to its success. Notwithstanding and subject to some details that could arise, we have every intention of being supportive and participating. This committee's done a good job.

I have one last point. I hope there's a good analysis between what this committee proposed.... We spent a lot of time, we worked hard on our report, and it was disappointing to see the way a lot of that work was set aside by the government after it promised to do things differently.

Being where we are now, it behooves all of us to see this be successful, in my view, and I say that as a small “d” democrat, not just a large “D” democrat. There's nothing more precious than our democracy, and this is an important part of strengthening that democracy.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Thank you, David. That was very eloquent, as usual.

Mr. Reid.

Noon

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

I felt the problem with previous debates was not that leaders did not want to participate, but on the contrary, leaders who did want to participate were excluded. That seems not to have come up today. Will it be the case that the leader of the Green Party will be included in the debates that are under the purview of the debates commission in the 2019 election?

Noon

Liberal

Karina Gould Liberal Burlington, ON

Ultimately, all the decisions will be made by the debates commissioner himself. However, given the criteria that was established, a party leader would have to meet two of the three. First, being elected to the House under the party that he or she is leading, or having a member there; second, running candidates in 90% of all electoral districts; and third, having a sufficient chance to have a member elected to the House, given ongoing polling and public context.

Noon

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

The third one is obviously the most difficult to determine, so it does raise the question, have any criteria been provided to us that will cause us to know in advance of the writ period as opposed to discovering partway through what is going to determine who gets in or who gets out?

Noon

Liberal

Karina Gould Liberal Burlington, ON

That will be a decision for the commissioner.

Noon

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I would request that the committee write to the debates commissioner to ask him the answer to this question. I did raise it with him when he was here in person and he seemed conscientiously seized with the thought that he ought to provide us with the response. It might be time to write to him and make that request, so we can know how he's going to interpret that criterion.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

You want to write to the debates commissioner.

Noon

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Write to him to ask a question.

Noon

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

I want to ask about what he takes that third criterion to mean.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Sure. I'll do that.