Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 21st, 2017

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

We're now in public. We have a speakers list, Scott Simms and Mr. Richards.

Mr. Simms.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

When I was first elected in 2004, I came here with a great sense of wonderment, anticipation, and excitement, and when I came here, I was overwhelmed by the amount of work that was involved in understanding how the House operates and how we go about our business, juxtaposed with the role of the member of Parliament. It is a multi-faceted job that is overwhelming, and certainly I'm not alone. I think everybody in this room understands just how overwhelming, but very special, this job can be. For me it's the job of a lifetime.

I'm very proud today to move this motion, which I am doing for several reasons.

Let me start by saying that a few weeks ago, the Honourable James McGrath, former MP for St. John's East passed away, and he left behind many legacies, one of which was a report from 1985 by a committee that he chaired. Some of that has been talked about. It was talked about earlier in the session, in the take-note debate we had on October 6, and some of that was also reflected during the modernization committee of 2003.

I've had several discussions since returning following this last election. One of the things I've always wanted to do in addition to all my other duties has been to help make this place work, not just for a sitting government, not just for the executive, but for every member of Parliament who exists, for every member of Parliament who has existed, and for all future members of Parliament, so we can look at the best practices by which we can improve this place.

This is not just a static event. This is a living, breathing organism of democracy that we exercise, and every other healthy democracy does the same thing.

I just recently returned from the U.K. where we visited the Houses of Parliament at Westminster and of course the Parliament of Scotland. I had several meetings about how they conduct their business, and the role of their members of Parliament. Over the years they have had some great discussions about how they do that. Back in the late 1990s they had a great discussion, and they followed that up with ways to improve. The record shows that they have improved the way they organize their debates and their committees and the way they sit and deliberate over the country's business.

I've had several discussions with the current House leader about ways to improve this, and we have agreed on many things.

As we all know, and as was reported in the media, there is a discussion paper, which I was very impressed with as we poured our ideas into this on October 6, 2016. I really liked that take-note debate. I thought it was amazing. I think just about everybody in this room had a way of providing input into that take-note debate, which I thought was incredible. We came together in the spirit of goodwill so that each member of Parliament could represent their constituents and by the same token allow the government's business to be done.

That being said, in the spirit of the Honourable James McGrath, I want to move this motion, and I want to do it under the three overarching themes we've talked about for years, all the way up to our take-note debate on October 6: the management of debate, the management of the House and its sittings, and the management of committees.

I think there's a great deal of improvement to be had, and I'm really looking forward to hearing not just from the people who have the experience here. I came here when Mr. Christopherson did, and I know he too has a lot of good ideas, many even better than my own, but I also want to hear new ideas.

There are elements of this that I would like to see reflected in a study—things like electronic voting, things like committee business that can be improved upon, and the sittings of the House, and how we structure debates so that they are more effective for the country to run and certainly more effective for planning for each member of Parliament.

I'm asking all committee members here today to deeply consider that we now have the opportunity to make a change, reflecting upon the studies of the past and all that we have discussed up until this day, whether someone is a senior MP or a junior MP, and no matter what part of the country someone comes from.

I happily move this motion, and incorporate within it points A to E. I hope all committee members, in the spirit of goodwill and of democracy, more than anything else, provide the government with a guideline by which we can improve how democracy operates on the federal level.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Could you read the motion you are proposing?

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

I move:

That, in relation to the Committee's study of the Standing Orders and procedure of the House and its committees, and in addition to the proposals outlined in the October 6, 2016, take note debate on the Standing Orders, the Committee broaden the scope of its study to undertake a comprehensive review of the Standings Orders of the House of Commons as follows:

a) The study shall be divided into the following 3 overarching themes:

1. Management of Debate

2. Management of the House and its sittings

3. Management of Committees;

The Clerk of the Committee be instructed to write to each Member who is not a member of a caucus represented on the Committee to invite those Members to participate in the proceedings pursuant to Standing Order 119 and file with the Clerk of the Committee, in both official languages, any recommendations they may have as it relates to changes in any of the 3 themes outlined in (a) and prior to consideration of the draft report;

I've heard many great ideas from many independent members and smaller parties over these past 14 years.

c) Parties submit their list of proposed witnesses to the Clerk of the Committee no later than 7 calendar days following the adoption of this motion;

d) The Committee complete its study and report its findings and recommendations back to the House no later than June 2, 2017; and

e) The Committee meet outside the regular meeting hours as necessary to complete the study pursuant to paragraph (d).

Again, I thank the committee and you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Thank you.

Mr. Richards.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I listened to Mr. Simms. I listened to what he had to say, and it doesn't line up with this motion. We talk about democracy and all these things, and I have a lot of respect for Mr. Simms, but I know that this isn't his motion. I know that this has come from the Prime Minister's Office. There's no question about that. It comes within minutes, I think, of this draft that we received from the House leader in terms of what they want to do to impose changes that would lessen the accountability of the government to Canadians and to this Parliament, that would require the Prime Minister to only be here once a week for question period so he has less accountability. Liberal MPs want to have a day off, so they don't have to work Fridays.

None of that is about democracy. Although I have great respect for Mr. Simms, I don't really believe this is his motion. That's why I won't cast any doubt on his thoughts because I don't think that.... This is something that he has been put up to, obviously.

That's unfortunate, because I really think that what you have here is a type of motion that shows exactly why it's so important that the opposition maintain some ability to hold the government accountable. A lot of the things that they're trying to remove, when you look at that letter from the House leader, are to prevent exactly what is being done here, trying to force through things.

When you look at, for example, the report that we've already done looking at Friday sittings, clearly, the report says that we wouldn't make any recommendations for change in that regard, yet we have this letter from the House leader now saying we're going to try to move ahead with this anyway.

In my mind, it certainly appears as though this is an attempt by the government to try to force through some of their changes, and they're trying to force this committee to provide them cover. They have a Liberal majority, obviously, and they could do that if they chose. That's what they're trying to do. They're trying to force through changes that will benefit them, that will lessen their accountability to Canadians. Frankly, it's disgusting and pathetic.

I can tell you right now, although I know that when we look at some of the other things in the letter from the House leader, obviously none of the members here would have had an opportunity to have discussions with their caucus about this yet. I can tell you one thing and it's that there has already been an indication and this committee was an example. It was unanimous. The suggestion of this committee was that we not make a change to Fridays, for example. Any attempts by this government, and this is clearly what it is, to lessen their accountability to Canadians and to this Parliament will be met with every bit of resistance that can possibly be met with by this party, and I'm sure by all of the opposition parties.

If this is the kind of approach that they're planning to take, they had better be prepared for that.

I guess beyond that, the only other thing that I would add is that, with something like this, I would want to see some kind of commitment, obviously, that these meetings will all be conducted in public, because it is important that Canadians have the ability to see what the government is trying to do in terms of lessening their accountability to Canadians.

Those are some of my initial comments. I'll probably have a lot more to say on this, but this is sad and pathetic, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Mr. Reid.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Was not Mr. Christopherson before me?

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

I'm sorry.

Mr. Christopherson and then Mr. Reid.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Mr. Reid.

I share the sentiment of my colleague, Mr. Richards, and I want to hearken back to the election campaign where the now government, the Liberal Party, at the time made all kinds of promises, highfalutin, high-sounding promises, about how they were going to change the relationship between committees and Parliament. Committees were going to be respected. Committees were not going to be browbeaten by the government to toe the party line, and parliamentary secretaries weren't going to sit on the committee and direct things.

Most importantly, they said they were going to bring back the independence of committees as they were originally conceived when the parliamentary system was first thought of. That was the promise. I tell you it's been a struggle to recognize where that's been honoured. It has in a few occasions and I have said publicly that's a good thing.

My favourite part of being an MP, other than being in my riding with my constituents, here on the Hill is committee work. I love doing committee work. I've gone out of my way, when the government has shown some respect and lived up to what they promised, to say so in the hope that would further it and continue it. This is the antithesis of that.

If I can, Chair, I also want to share my thoughts with Mr. Richards in that I agree with him and I'll defer at any moment to give Mr. Simms the floor, since I'm about to talk about him. I'll give him that. I have great respect for Mr. Simms, and that's why I agree with Mr. Richards that I don't believe that this really is Mr. Simms' idea. If he wants to take complete ownership of it, that's fine, but I think we all know that it's kind of a poor ruse. This is from on high. This is directly out of the Prime Minister's Office, marching orders given to the House leader and then all the way down to here at the committee.

Again, that was not supposed to be the way this government was going to be with committees. That's why I'm so furious at this, because this was a good thing that the government was saying. I made it very clear that if we couldn't win—I wanted us to win—then I did want them to win. I liked a lot of the things that they were talking about. A lot of them were the same things as us, like breathing more democracy into this place and bringing back a lot of the traditions and respect that used to be here that got lost over the last decade—all good things.

So what happened? Because there's no goodwill. I'm sorry, my friend said he was doing this out of goodwill but I don't see any. Had there been goodwill, this would have started maybe at the House leaders' level where they would have said, look, here's what we're considering doing. How do you feel about that? It would have worked its way through and found a way to the committee. We'd have been seized of it in a way where it would be, “This is something we'd like you to take a look at in a respectful kind of way”, and then we would go about, with the steering committee, putting together what a plan might look like. That's how we would do that and that's how we've been trying to function.

I have to tell you it feels like I'm back in the last Parliament. This is the kind of nonsense we used to face with the Harper government every bloody day at every bloody committee. It was supposed to be different. This doesn't feel different. The government tried to bring in some of these changes. You know, context matters. There was government motion number six, an odious piece of parliamentary business if ever there was any, and clearly enough it was, because ultimately the government had to back down, big time back down.

Then, as Mr. Richards has said, we took a look at some of these issues—not all of them but some of them—in the family-friendly Parliament review we did, and some of these things were rejected. Now they're back, not for consideration or for discussion as they're putting it. Make no mistake, this is being served up to be rammed through.

I haven't heard the government talk about what we're going to do about the issue of the normal history of all-party agreement on these things. I think this would be a great opportunity to reintroduce the Cullen model. It worked very well in democratic reform and this is somewhat similar. We're dealing with rules that affect all of us. We want to give everybody an opportunity to have input. You try to find compromise where you can or at the very least reach majority with more than one party.

The Cullen model in the Special Committee on Electoral Reform gave us that opportunity. The government hasn't talked about that at all right now.

I have to agree with Mr. Richards, again, who had the opportunity to speak first and lay out some of these important issues. It looks like the government is prepared to change the rules of our House using their majority. How the hell is that fair? How does that even come anywhere near what you promised in the campaign? Every one of you promised that you were going to be different, and Canadians bought it and gave you a huge majority. Here we are now, facing Harper 2.0. This is really serious.

We have, as part of our mandate, a job to review the Standing Orders anyway. It's part of our mandate during this Parliament. Parliament did theirs, and they did it within 90 days. We have a mandate that we're supposed to review the Standing Orders. Normally that's done in a collegial fashion. We're not doing that. The government has reached in, cherry-picked certain things it wants, and stuffed them into this motion. From all accounts, it looks like they are prepared to just ram, ram, ram. That's just Harper, Harper, Harper.

Not only that, to add insult to injury, we haven't even had a chance to take it to caucus yet. The discussion paper was dropped last week, followed by the motion. Now we're back here. Tomorrow is caucus, yet today the government is so anxious to ram this through that it hasn't even given us an opportunity to take it to our caucuses so that when we speak here at this committee, we have a mandate from our caucuses to speak on behalf of our colleagues. They're looking at this in terms of, “We have a majority. We're going to ram it through.”

Take a look at my speech on Bill C-23. It's very similar, because this action is very similar. I say to my colleagues across the way, you can't be feeling good about this, as everybody busies themselves with their notes.

This is not a good day for Liberal promises about committee work and Parliament. At the very least, give us a chance to take it to our caucuses before you start ramming. At least let us do that. Let us check off the box that at least you gave the caucuses a chance to talk before you rammed through your cherry-picked changes to the way our Parliament functions.

With that in mind, Chair, I would move adjournment of this debate to allow us an opportunity to consult with our caucuses.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Is that debatable, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

No. It's non-debatable. Those in favour of adjourning?

(Motion negatived)

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Really?

Chair, do I still have the floor?

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Yes, go ahead.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'm not starting yet. Don't worry. You'll know.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

I have a point of order.

I don't know how else to do this, but I want to communicate something to Mr. Christopherson.

As a thought, given that you have the floor, I wonder if you'd consider the possibility of asking that the debate be adjourned to some specified future date—the nearest one seems to be Thursday—thereby allowing people to go back to their caucuses. That would also allow our witnesses, who came with the expectation that they would be dealing with that, to have us move back to their material. We could discuss how we're going to deal with the issue of juggling the Elections Canada stuff, for which we have a tight deadline, which is Mr. Simms' proposed deadline of June, without having the threat of giving up the floor and having the thing passed through hanging over our heads at every moment. I'm just suggesting it as a possibility.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That's an excellent point. I think it's an improvement on what I was attempting. It still gets this off our plate right now but lets us also continue to do the work we were ready to do. I can't remember the exact wording, but I would move the adjournment of the debate until at least our next meeting on Thursday to allow our caucuses an opportunity to consult. It would then allow us a chance to continue the work we came here to do originally.

Does that cover it, Scott?

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

That gets it. Yes.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Clerk, does that get me through as a motion? If not, I would seek some guidance. You know my intent.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

The clerk informs me that this is a substantive motion, but we have a substantive motion on the floor already, so we can't deal with that at this moment.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Chair, through you, may I ask for advice from the clerk on what an appropriate motion might be to achieve.... You know I'm trying to adjourn this debate right now. I know that I can do that on a main motion, I just don't have the right wording. Can you help me?

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

The clerk suggests there is no other procedure. You've tried. You've had your motions, and there aren't any other.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Mr. Chair, again it's a point of order. Is it not possible to suspend the debate until next Thursday? Would that work? I'm not sure that's not just saying the same thing in a different way, and I'm not sure if it's a solution to the problem.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

No, that wouldn't work.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I don't want to belabour this, Chair, and I promise to drop it if it's going nowhere. Normally, in parliamentary procedure there is the ability to table a motion, so that you can set business aside, if the majority decides to, and then you continue with the agenda, which I think is an improvement over what I offered earlier, which was a straight-up adjournment of the meeting that would allow us to continue working.

There is some means, a motion that allows us to set aside a debate that we're having right now. I don't have the exact wording. I don't think it's a motion to table, but that effectively is what it is.

I know it is in Robert's Rules.