Evidence of meeting #66 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was commons.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Charles Robert  Clerk of the Senate and Clerk of the Parliaments and Chief Legislative Services Officer

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON

I think that members would hardly put me as the type who would badger a witness. I don't think that's even near my personality type, and I think everyone on that side does know that, but we are in a bit of a crunch here. We're trusted to make a decision, and there are some questions about this process that we still have some concerns about.

Minister, you did actually mention something earlier and I just wanted to confirm it. Were either of the two opposition House leaders consulted on this proposed appointment?

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Bardish Chagger Liberal Waterloo, ON

Mr. Chair, I sent a letter out in September asking.... With all due respect, there are conversations taking place between House leaders and parties which I feel need to be left in the areas where they are taking place. I think, in the best interests of all of our members, I will share that we are having good-faith conversations, and I believe that we can all work together. I really do appreciate having the opportunity to come here.

To Mr. Dubé's point of order, if he ever does want to grill me again, I look forward to a conversation in the lobby or anywhere. I would love to answer any questions he might have.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Thank you, Minister. We appreciate your appearance. I'm sure that if you can have a conversation with Mr. Dubé, he would appreciate that.

Noon

Voices

Oh, oh!

Noon

Liberal

Bardish Chagger Liberal Waterloo, ON

Thank you, all.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

We'll suspend while we change witnesses.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Pursuant to Standing Order 111.1(1), the committee will now consider the proposed appointment of Charles Robert to the position of Clerk of the House of Commons. We have with us today the proposed appointee, Mr. Charles Robert. He is currently the interim Clerk of the Senate and Clerk of the Parliaments and chief legislative services officer.

We'll go no later than 12:45 p.m., because we have to finish our electoral reform report today in the last 15 minutes.

Mr. Robert, if you would like to make some opening comments, the floor is yours.

12:05 p.m.

Charles Robert Clerk of the Senate and Clerk of the Parliaments and Chief Legislative Services Officer

Thank you very much.

I'm honoured to be here today. I have to confess that I am a bit excited but also nervous. It was on Tuesday that the government House leader, the Honourable Bardish Chagger, tabled in the House of Commons a certificate of nomination designating me to be the next Clerk of the House of Commons.

What a rewarding journey the pursuit of this objective was for me! The process began last January when the position of Clerk of the House of Commons was announced in the Canada Gazette. I submitted my application before the end of February and I was interviewed by the board at the end of April. Then my references were checked and I had a psychometric assessment. I was delighted to hear of my appointment earlier this week.

The position of Clerk is a big job. It is the most senior position in my profession in this country. I am humbled but, I believe, also ready to take on this enormous challenge.

I believe you have a copy of my CV, but I would like to provide you with an overview of my background. I started my career—Andre will be glad to hear this—in the Library of Parliament. I worked for almost 10 years here in the House and for the last 26 years have been working in the other chamber. The end result is that during my career, I've had the honour of working for both houses, and of working for the Library of Parliament, which provides an invaluable service to both.

I began my career more than 37 years ago as an employee in the Library of Parliament. I then acquired a real interest in the work of Parliament, its traditions, its practices and its procedures. I quickly realized that there is nothing better for Canadian democracy than the Westminster parliamentary system, and I wanted to be part of it.

In the early 1980s the House of Commons was expanding its procedural services. This was when the table research branch was established here in the House. I applied for a position and was successful. I was in. I still remember the very first research paper that I wrote. It was on grievances and the history of the notion of grievances before supply.

During my time in the House, I was lucky to work with some of the giants in the administration of the House, former clerks, senior clerks, principal clerks, and deputy principal clerks. It was also a time of Speakers such as Jerome, Sauvé, Bosley, and Fraser. I had the good fortune to learn from all of them.

It was also an exciting time to be on the Hill and working in the Commons. The Constitution was patriated, and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms was enacted. There was also the then-unprecedented bells episode, delaying a vote in the House for two weeks. That was also the day that Bob Rae left the House. In fact, this event was the subject of my first published article that appeared in The Table.

After several years in table research, I moved to other procedural operations, committees, and journals and became totally immersed in the services they provide to support the work of the House of Commons. I embraced the opportunity to take on the administrative part of these jobs.

Canadians, if they recognize us at all, see us sitting at the table in the House from time to time. You, however, as parliamentarians, know that more than two-thirds of the job takes place behind the scenes in the important area of administration. Without this, none of the rest would work.

In 1991 I took the opportunity to expand my knowledge and experience in our bicameral Parliament and accepted a position as a committee clerk in the Senate. I thought it was a great chance to learn how the Senate, in the words of the Supreme Court, exercises its role as a complementary body to the House of Commons. From committees I became the EA to the Clerk of the Senate, and working in his office had the privilege of getting an important bird's-eye view of the way the entire place worked. I subsequently became a deputy principal clerk and table officer. I also assumed managerial responsibility for various procedural support services in the Senate, including journals, debates, and procedural research.

Again, the sound administration of each of these areas was an important factor to the success I had in achieving my goals of building a strong team and producing positive results.

While fulfilling these responsibilities, I continued to write and publish, with a particular focus on parliamentary privilege. I also became involved in different outreach activities, and joined some associations that promoted knowledge about Parliament and our democracy. I was involved in the initiative that established the Teachers Institute, and subsequently Many Facets. I became a member of the executive of the Canadian Study of Parliament Group and the Forum for Young Canadians. I also joined the editorial board of the Canadian Parliamentary Review.

To improve knowledge of the Senate and its rules and practices, as well as to enhance the skills of senators' staff, I led efforts to develop different tools and activities—procedural seminars, procedural notes, and, after many years and too many iterations, publication of the Senate manual Senate Procedure in Practice. I also worked closely with a small team of senators from the rules committee, who rewrote and reorganized the rules of the Senate, making the text clear with a more user-friendly format.

I should also mention that as a senior table officer since 1996, I was part of the Clerk's management team. A big part of the job of senior table officers is providing leadership for the logistical and support functions necessary to the operations of the Senate. I was also able to realize first-hand the great importance of the responsibility that comes with coordinating and directing the activities of the different components of administration and the legislative sector so that they work together in effective collaboration to enable senators to carry out their functions as efficiently as possible.

This isn't just about pushing paper. It's about setting the tone and the atmosphere necessary so that all staff can strive to improve, to be better, to always be on the lookout for ways that allow parliamentarians to fulfill their responsibilities more thoroughly and successfully.

My involvement in the management of Senate administration became deeper when I was appointed as Acting Clerk of the Senate and Clerk of the Parliaments at the beginning of 2015.

During that same period, the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration created the executive committee, made up of the Clerk of the Senate, the Chief Corporate Services Offices and the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel and Chief Parliamentary Precinct Services Officer. Using that model, we work closely together to manage all aspects of the administration and thereby to provide senators with better service.

My experience in the executive committee was similar in approach to the manner in which I have managed throughout my career. I believe that being open, inclusive, and transparent leads to collaboration, and that collaboration is the only way to get the best out of everyone. One bit of advice that I received years ago, when I was working as a junior procedural clerk in the House of Commons, has stuck with me: always be mindful of morale. The take-away from that advice was that good morale is essential to effective administration. It is absolutely key to solid performance. Without the support of motivated and dedicated employees and teams, no leader, no clerk, can really achieve what is required to sustain the work of the Senate or the House of Commons.

Having said that, the buck stops somewhere, and that is with me. When decisions have to be made, I accept and will accept full responsibility and, if confirmed as Clerk, full accountability.

Let me conclude with some thoughts on how I see my role as Clerk of the House of Commons should you support the nomination and recommend that the House vote for my appointment. I am here to work for you and with you, to make sure that you have the best support as parliamentarians in a modern, safe environment. The rapid pace of development of communications is transforming our appreciation of democracy and public engagement.

This is already having impact on your work as MPs as you represent your constituencies and legislate for the benefit of the nation.

While we need to keep up with these developments and incorporate them into our models of work, we can't lose sight of the traditions that still retain their meaning, that provide an anchor for purposeful advancement. The renovations under way throughout much of Parliament Hill provide a good image of what I mean. These projects, updating these wonderful historic buildings, including this one, show how we can embrace the future while remembering and valuing the past.

Thank you for your time.

I suspect I may be ready now for some questions.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Thank you, Mr. Robert. That is a very impressive background.

Ms. Sahota.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Mr. Robert, for being here today.

When I first was put on this committee, I thought procedure might be quite boring. I wondered what parliamentary procedure was going to be like, but, being a lawyer as well, I had quickly learned that if you don't know the rules of the game, no matter how good a case you have, no matter how well-intentioned your client was or is, it doesn't really matter. Without a knowledge of legal procedure, you cannot effectively defend or represent your client. Similarly, I've learned since being a parliamentarian that no matter how good your intentions may be, if you don't know how Parliament functions and you don't know the procedural rules, you cannot be an effective representative of the people.

After looking over your CV and hearing your introductory remarks, I can see that you are a man who understands procedure very well and has a lot of experience with the rules.

I'd like to get to know a little bit more about your intentions and your vision for Parliament. There has been a lot of discussion at this committee and elsewhere about changing the tone of Parliament, about making it more inclusive so that we better reflect and represent the population of Canada. I would like to know your thoughts on how you can bring your experience from the Senate to the House of Commons.

I know you have been in the Senate during a unique transformational time. With what you've learned and how you've adapted to the new way the Senate works with all the independent senators, how would you apply this experience to the House in order to encourage that co-operative environment?

12:20 p.m.

Clerk of the Senate and Clerk of the Parliaments and Chief Legislative Services Officer

Charles Robert

The anchor for any practice followed by any parliamentary body is going to be its rules, and the rules normally have an organic history. They are created in response to circumstances that arise and develop that have meaning over time and will occasionally shift and have to be adapted or changed.

But rules are just rules. Their ability to promote the objectives of the institution depends also on goodwill. That has been true, and it was observable when I was working in the House of Commons as I am working now in the Senate. It matters. All parliamentarians are motivated by the same objective of trying to achieve good for the country, and that will always be the driving motivation, which will sometimes lead to friction. More often than not, we would hope that it leads to co-operation and shared objectives because we're all here for the same reason.

I had the opportunity to speak to some members when I was briefly in Africa last year. They were some of the 200 new members, and I thought I was living back in the 1960s because it was really a period when you saw the members energized by their commitment and their ability to participate in something like a parliamentary environment. That is a good that should be exploited as much as possible.

I know that at the beginning of every Parliament, there is a well-programmed orientation week where you learn some of the ins and outs of parliamentary behaviour. In the Senate we know that's not enough. We have to do more. That's why we brought into place things like procedural seminars. We invite senators' staff into the Senate chamber and explain to them and answer questions from them about various aspects of parliamentary procedure. Right now, two days a week, in the Senate, at the end of every sitting except this week when the sittings have gone rather long, there will be a collection of senators who will ask some of the principal clerks about the practices. What happened? How did that just occur? Why was it done that way? Why did the member try to do something like pull an adjournment motion? What was the real—was there something behind it?

Trying to inform the members within the parameters that we are allowed to describe how the system works is one way that we can make you as parliamentarians more informed and, I suspect, also more effective.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

That sounds like an excellent idea. It would better equip a lot of the members in the House of Commons to have that knowledge. As I sit as a parliamentarian, there are constantly questions from all around, from our neighbours, from our seatmates, from people around. Sometimes people have the answer, and sometimes they don't. It would be really effective to have a source that you know you can go to and not feel awkward about doing so. That would be an excellent practice to put here.

Also there is a little bit of a difference that we were joking around about on this side with the Senate versus the House of Commons because the House of Commons is televised, and having the TV cameras in the House definitely changes the type of debate that is had from time to time in the way the discourse gets shaped.

How would you deal with that? It is your job to inform the Speaker, to figure out how to bring the decorum in the House that we've been talking about and eagerly looking forward to. What would you do?

12:20 p.m.

Clerk of the Senate and Clerk of the Parliaments and Chief Legislative Services Officer

Charles Robert

Again, I'd have to go back to the root answer that you have to, in some sense, inform the members to help them realize what their responsibilities are. The institution is driven by a lot of partisan interest. That is almost like an engine, but it isn't necessarily the destination. It gets you there, and I think, in fact, the idea of being more attuned to what it is you want to achieve might channel behaviour in a different way.

When I look at how things can sometimes occur in the Senate, there are certainly objectives with respect to passing legislation, and there are strategies that are in play, but the focus really is on the nature of strategies that do everything to promote deliberation. That is a framework that could influence the behaviour of some of the parliamentarians in the House of Commons without—

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Sorry, our time for this round is up.

Mr. Nater.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's good to be back with the procedure and house affairs committee on a temporary basis. I want to thank Monsieur Robert for joining us this morning.

It's a pleasure to have you here, and I wish we'd had a bit more time, because I'd be fascinated to talk a little bit about your publications. I know I've cited a couple of them in my previous academic life, so it's good to have that academic and publication record coming with you as well.

You talked a little bit in your opening comments about the process. You mentioned you had applied in February. What was the application process like? Was it online? Who did you submit your application to?

12:25 p.m.

Clerk of the Senate and Clerk of the Parliaments and Chief Legislative Services Officer

Charles Robert

Yes, it came through, and I think it said something “job opportunity”. It was posted online and you applied online, and then there was a terminal date and I made sure that I made my submission before the terminal date.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

It's always good to do it a couple of days before, because you never know when the website will crash or something like that.

12:25 p.m.

Clerk of the Senate and Clerk of the Parliaments and Chief Legislative Services Officer

Charles Robert

Well, in fact, I had to actually call PCO computer people because I was trying to enter some data and it wouldn't accept it. So I had to actually go to PCO. I said, “Make sure that data is in, because I don't want the fact that I wasn't able to properly fill in my profile to cancel the application.”

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

And if you're using Chrome or if you're using Internet Explorer, it can always have a different effect as well.

Do you recall during the interview process, during the selection process, who was on the panels when you were being interviewed?

12:25 p.m.

Clerk of the Senate and Clerk of the Parliaments and Chief Legislative Services Officer

Charles Robert

There were people from the Privy Council Office; that was for sure. There were also people from the firm that was actually managing the competition.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

Was there anyone from the House of Commons?

12:25 p.m.

Clerk of the Senate and Clerk of the Parliaments and Chief Legislative Services Officer

Charles Robert

I believe so.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

Okay, but you don't recall who it was?

12:25 p.m.

Clerk of the Senate and Clerk of the Parliaments and Chief Legislative Services Officer

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

I recognize that you've been the interim Clerk in the Senate since 2015. Has the process opened up for that application yet, and—