Evidence of meeting #73 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ontario.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Eric Montigny  Professor, Department of Political Science, Université Laval, As an Individual
Leslie Seidle  Research Director, Institute for Research on Public Policy, As an Individual
Mary Dawson  Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Karen Shepherd  Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Greg Essensa  Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Ontario

12:45 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

No, I haven't.

12:45 p.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Karen Shepherd

I'm aware that PCO is running the process, but it's in their hands.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

There's been no consultation with either of you on the process. Okay, thank you.

Have those reappointments for shorter periods of time affected your ability to undertake studies within both of your jurisdictions, given that you don't know exactly how long your terms may extend, with regard to ongoing studies you may be undertaking?

12:50 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

No, I go on as usual.

12:50 p.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Karen Shepherd

It's the same answer. The fact is, there is a director of investigations, a high degree of professional staff, and legal counsel sitting with me. Things will continue after I'm gone. No, it hasn't stopped anything.

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

Thank you.

The Open and Accountable Government document has been cited a couple of times, the Prime Minister's document. You made mention, Ms. Dawson, that you don't enforce that. You don't have the jurisdiction to enforce that.

If Parliament were to call on you to enforce that, would your office be in the position to undertake that?

12:50 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

We probably would. There may be some parts of it that don't belong in an act like mine, but there are certainly significant sections in there that could go into my act.

I was delighted to see that guide. It came out as a result of one of my reports, I think, in which I said there were some gaps. At least there was an accountability guide established, so some of those rules in there are.... A very important one, for example, is about monitoring what your staff is doing, the issue that you can't set something up directly but have your staff do it. There shouldn't be those sorts of gaps.

So there are parts of it that could go into my act; that is what I've said.

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

The issue of staff is certainly a topic that's come up a number of times. I know Mr. Christopherson has made mention of that as well, and I think it's worthwhile.

I want to ask Ms. Shepherd a question as well.

One of our previous witnesses expressed concerns that this type of legislation would almost create a duplicate lobbyist registry, or a registry similar to a lobbyist registry, in the sense that Elections Canada is now going to be keeping a registry of basically any participants in political fundraisers.

Coming from the lobbyist side of things, do you see some concerns with that type of direction that may happen at Elections Canada, about having almost a second registry for political participants at events?

12:50 p.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Karen Shepherd

To be honest, I'm not sure about the duplication of the list. What I'm aware of, when I look at the particulars of this bill, is the fact that anyone who purchased a ticket for which the fee was $200 would be listed. At least, from my point of view, it would be another tool that my investigators would use in looking at whether the act or the code had been breached.

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

I should point out that, even though neither of your jurisdictions—for lack of a better word—is directly touched by this legislation, it would be something you would make use of in conducting an investigation, whether from a conflict of interest or a lobbyist standpoint. It is an information tool.

12:50 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

Yes, it's useful.

12:50 p.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Karen Shepherd

It would be useful.

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

You have finished.

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

Yes.

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Ms. Sahota, I understand you're going to share with Ms. Tassi.

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

Yes.

I just want to go back into the last bit, and then I'll hand it over to my colleague here.

Because your presentation at the beginning looked at these specific reports, I was wondering if you could shed some more light. I'm not that familiar with the Raitt, Dykstra, and Glover reports. How do those relate to where we should be going with this legislation?

12:50 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

I think none of those reports fit within section 16, so all three of them were found not to have contravened.

With respect to the questions that were raised, the staff had done some things in one of them that the minister didn't know about, so she wasn't personally involved and she hadn't directed them to do the things, so she wasn't caught—

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

Are you talking about the taking of gifts?

12:50 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

No, it had to do with fundraising.

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

Okay.

12:50 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

All three of those had to do with fundraising.

In another one, it was alleged that somebody had been given by Rogers the use of its facilities to have a party but, in fact, they had paid the normal going price. Quite often, when you look into these investigations, you find there's a rationale behind them.

What was the third one?

12:55 p.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Karen Shepherd

It was Glover.

12:55 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

With that one, again her staff had organized something. It was awful. They had the whole heritage community in Winnipeg being invited to a thing. She had been invited to go to this house and hadn't been told who had been invited. That was her riding association that did that, so there are other people who can organize things.

If there was a rule, for example, in my act that said, “You have to watch what your guys are doing", it might have made a difference. That's all.

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

Okay. I'm going to pass it over to my colleague, because she has a few questions to ask as well.

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

Filomena Tassi Liberal Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON

Thank you.

Ms. Shepherd, I have two questions for you.

First off, in all these things, you're trying to find the balance, so you want to try to make sure that what you're coming through with is fair and reasonable and, at the same time, improving the current situation, right? Do you feel that Bill C-50 hits the right balance in terms of opening up events to media and allowing lobbyists to attend by ensuring that their names are recorded? In terms of the requirements, as they apply to lobbyists, do you feel the legislation is fair and has the right balance?