Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Feb. 18th, 2016

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Maybe we should pick up on that thread, Mr. Chair. I'll leave that with you for now, but maybe that's something we want to look at. We keep doing the same thing over and over. Einstein would be so disappointed because we keep getting the same outcome, and we look for different ones. Maybe we should reach out and find some of that. New Parliament, big change, maybe this is the opportunity to get our arms around this and seize the moment. How's my time, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

You have two minutes.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you. I'll leave that, I think, unless there was more to it you wanted to go to.

I'll come back to the gifts again, because it's the most confusing thing. I'm pleased to hear, and I've heard you say consistently, that on the constituency side it's not as big an issue. That doesn't mean it can't be, but in Hamilton I don't go to a lot of galas at which the price is more than $200. It happens from time to time, but really not that often.

Even when I was on city council, in more than 30 years in elected office, I don't think I've ever had to report anything involving any serious money. There were one or two items that crossed the line and triggered the reporting, but for the most part in the ridings it doesn't....

Now, here you get into a different ball game. We've talked about some of the issues: the receptions that are unclear, what is a protocol gift versus what isn't, and acceptability versus reportability. But the thing we haven't talked about, just to confuse it even more.... My friend Mr. Reid and I spent a fair bit of time...and I'm looking forward to his seven minutes on this because he spent a lot of time and was involved, I believe, in the original legislation. I just happened to arrive but he was actually part of the homework, so I defer often to his corporate history on a lot of these things.

But the stuff that comes in.... I'll walk into my Hill office on a Monday, having been in my riding, and there will be something sitting on my chair. There will be a letter and there will be some little, I don't know, key chain or a fob of some sort, a baseball cap, and a letter saying, “Hi. How are you? We are the”...whoever.

Recently we had one from the insurance bureau. I think they sent a little winter kit. I don't know the price. I'm thinking 50 bucks maybe, give or take, if that. I sent it back, based on the last meetings we had with you, because I just fear the media is going to be coming around saying they're just curious as to who followed what she said. I shipped it all back.

But you're going to hear Mr. Reid talk about the fact that sometimes it costs us more money to find out who to send it to, spend the time of staff who spent time already unpacking it and getting it ready for me when I arrived, only to have me turn around and say ship it out. There's all that time.

Sometimes you're not sure. Mr. Reid was looking for permission just to throw it out, which is an answer here, but what a waste. Really, it's like throwing 50 bucks times 338 just completely out the window, and then there's no benefit gained by somebody who might use it.

[Mary Dawson]

No. You could accept those. As long as that insurance bureau or whoever the heck it was who gave you the gift wasn't looking for a decision from you.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I appreciate that, but what happens—

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

David, we're way over your time.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'm sorry. Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

We can get back to it, though, unless you want to go really quickly to finish this up.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

With your permission, I'll just follow up on it and stop as soon as you tell me, obviously.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Yes.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

You're getting the benefit of those who have been around. The media are also here, so if there are any mistakes, let me make them, rather than any of you. Yeah, I know how this goes, “Go ahead, Dave. Sure, talk away about all these gifts.” It's great subject fodder to be involved in.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Here is the thing. What happens is that the insurance bureau will do a lobby day, or certainly, for instance, the firefighters—and we get both the firefighters themselves and the chiefs—will give a gift, as well as the insurance bureau. Here's the thing. When they arrive, the sophisticated ones usually have two or three points and they keep it to that. They keep it simple. They come year after year making the same arguments, trying to get their issues on the agenda of the opposition, who then become the government and put pressure on the government, etc.

When you say to me, as long as they're not lobbying you for anything, I know—

[Mary Dawson]

It's as long as they're not a stakeholder, not “lobbying”. That's a much broader term.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Yes, but they're a stakeholder. They're representing brokers.

[Mary Dawson]

Right, but there are many stakeholders who aren't under the Lobbying Act. There are those cut-offs.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Okay. Now we get to speak to simplicity. Do my staff have to have a card with which they vet all of this? We're looking for simplicity. We want to make sure nothing is wrong; that's a given. But there's waste right now and this is what throws me. Using the firefighters as an example, they always send along a key chain, a fob, a baseball cap. They do that kind of stuff.

[Mary Dawson]

That's fine.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

But they always come with their three asks—I think of the chiefs in particular—on public safety issues. They're not benefiting personally from what they're asking for, but they want certain legislation brought in that they believe would improve the fire safety of Canadians in their homes and where we work and where we're in public.

How do I separate a constant...? I know the three points, because they've been meeting with me for over a decade. I know their points, so when I see something that comes from them I can make the connection, which probably eliminates 80% of what comes in the door.

Help me.

[Mary Dawson]

Is there any bill or any consideration by the government that is brought forward?

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

There are budget bills. Budget bills can contain a lot of little goodies for anybody, so if they happen to say, “We like the budget and we hope you will support it”, which of course as the opposition we're unlikely to, does that constitute it, because that's a big thing?

[Mary Dawson]

No. It has to be more obvious than that I think.

Lyne reminds me that there was a case where people came to us and asked us about some gifts the insurance people were giving at some point, and they had a matter before the House. That's why we said you couldn't do it.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

When you say a matter before the House, one of those three points would have to be in a bill or at a committee. What about a minister who says they are thinking of going that way, but they haven't yet?

[Mary Dawson]

Do you want to say a word or two?

[Lyne Robinson-Dalpé, Director, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner]

Essentially, if there is a bill before the House or changes in legislation or if somebody is appearing in front of committee to make changes to legislation or a project bill, at that point in time we would determine that the organization could not provide you with a gift.