Evidence of meeting #94 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was dene.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

Sorry about the delay. That's the translation.

I took a look at the Wikipedia articles. I consulted Wikipedia, and first of all I typed in “Dene language”. It sent me to “Chipewyan”.

What is the distinction between Dene and Chipewyan?

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Georgina Jolibois NDP Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK

I am a Dene Tsuut'ina person. When we speak about who we are, we say “Dene Tsuut'ina”. Chipewyan, the Cree people, gave us the Chipewyan name. Historically, where the Dene people were living, they were using pointed hats. It came from the way that we were dressed. We don't use the word “Chipewyan”. We say Dene.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

I get the impression that historically that happens a lot. When the Europeans arrived, they asked the people they had already met who those people were over there, and then they adopted the word that was given from one outside group about another group.

It sounds like that's what happened here.

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Georgina Jolibois NDP Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK

With the people who came over, Hudson's Bay Company people and also the priests and French people, some of our language is in French. We adopted some words in French, like bread. We also say beaucoup. That's the way we learned our language. The priests who stayed with us and lived with us learned how to speak Dene, and they spoke Dene with us.

It's not like that anymore. When they come from their country, some of the priests or missionaries use their first language, and then they learn how to speak Dene. The priest who is currently in La Loche is a speaker of the Dene language. Our bishop is also a Dene speaker. He does services in our Dene language too. The people in the schools are also speakers of Dene. That's the way we speak our language together and understand it.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

I have one last question. I think I have been using up all the time for my party here.

I have one last question that relates very specifically to having a translator for yourself. I'm going to ask this, if I get the chance, to our next witness as well.

I don't know if this is true with Dene, but some languages have within them different dialects that are to some degree mutually comprehensible, to some degree not mutually comprehensible. That's true with any language—English, French, German. I don't know if it's true of Dene. Given that you have been elected as a member of Parliament, ought we to try, if we're attempting to create translation facilities, to rely upon you to be able to identify where the pool of translators is who will be most helpful in allowing translation for parliamentary proceedings when you're speaking Dene?

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Georgina Jolibois NDP Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK

I think it's easy, because there are a lot of people who can speak our Dene language to interpret for us. There's one right here now.

The way that we keep our language is to be strong about it. We speak English pretty well, and we also speak Dene pretty well, not only in Saskatchewan but among people from Manitoba and the Northwest Territories. Alberta is the same too, I think.

In terms of what you're asking me, we understand two dialects, the “t” dialect and the “k” dialect. For me as a Dene, I use the “t” dialect. From the far north, there is a “k” dialect. When we say, “Let's go”, we use the “t” language, and in the far north they use the “k” dialect. There are differences in saying the words in Dene.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

Thank you very much.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Mahsi cho.

Mr. Stewart is next.

11:40 a.m.

NDP

Kennedy Stewart NDP Burnaby South, BC

Thank you. Thanks for presenting and thank you for the welcome.

I grew up in rural Nova Scotia, and until I was about 14 I had kind of a one-nation concept of what Canada was. I was taught that John A. Macdonald somehow failed to have a unitary style of government and that we've had some compromise. Then through the sovereignty association referendum and the Constitution talks in 1982, I developed what was kind of a standard two nations concept of what Canada was.

It wasn't until 1993, with Meech Lake, when I was back at university, that I was introduced to the idea of a three nations concept of what Canada was, and I think I definitely subscribe to that now. It was an evolution in my thinking, and I think what you're presenting here today is what a three nations concept of Canada looks like in practical terms.

For example, in translation in the House, we have English and French readily available, and that reinforces the idea of two nations, but when we talk about a three nations concept—the third nation, of course, being very many nations of indigenous origin—how do we accommodate that? How do we reflect that in our institutions? I think that's why these discussions are so important. It's because that's what we're doing here. We're discussing how to have a Parliament where we talk about our future and how that would come through in our day-to-day activities here.

Therefore, I really thank you for this experience today. It is fulfilling what I hope we can achieve as a country.

I have a question to you. How do you see this proceeding, and how likely do you think it is that we'll actually achieve this equal recognition of founders of Canada?

11:40 a.m.

NDP

Georgina Jolibois NDP Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK

Thank you for asking me that question. I think about this a lot, the way I'm going to speak Dene in the House of Commons. I'm an MP, and you are MPs here too. It's different when I speak my language. Some people speak English and French. Where I come from, in my community, the way we think about it—the way we grew up as indigenous people, Dene people, Métis people, people who are living in the north—is we say we are the first people. We grew up here. We lived here.

When you say “up to three nations”, I'll tell you the way we think about it. I think there should be four nations, the way I think about it. There are the people who came over here and are living here, people who will be working here. When we say “coast to coast” from Newfoundland to B.C., we help out the people who come over, and some people learn English and are recognized as Canadian citizens to give them the opportunity. For them, I consider that a third nation.

As Dene people and Métis people, there are a lot of us here. From our origins by being here, if we count that in, it would be difficult. When we speak, we say “nation to nation”. The way I think about it, the way we think about it, for the Denesuline and the Cree language, we're always put to the back of the land. From now, sitting here, sitting in front, we want to work together for young people. From where? Indigenous people say that, even from the far north. Even the Métis people say to fight for that. That's the way I think about it.

11:45 a.m.

NDP

Kennedy Stewart NDP Burnaby South, BC

Great. Time's short here, and I'm just wondering if there are other things you'd like to add that perhaps you haven't been able to say yet, things that you've reflected on through the questions, or something that perhaps you weren't able to cover in your initial speech.

11:45 a.m.

NDP

Georgina Jolibois NDP Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK

I'll say it again. Things are easy nowadays. Sitting here together, using technology, we learned a lot from that, talking about it from wherever we're staying. Because of that, speaking the Dene language in Parliament and having an interpreter position created—we have a lot of money, a lot of funds, for that. A lot of money is flowing to do things together, so I think it will be done, but we have to make a mental commitment to help each other out. If we don't think that way, I think we'll move a step backwards.

We talk about constitutional rights in English. We're asking for that.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Are there any more questions from any members of the committee?

I'd like to thank you very much. I'd also like to thank your Dene interpreter, Julius Park. Mahsi cho. I think this is a very historic meeting, the first meeting we've ever had in Dene, interpreted on Parliament Hill, so you're part of history. Thank you very much. I think you sense the goodwill on this committee to proceed on this.

11:45 a.m.

NDP

Georgina Jolibois NDP Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK

Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

We'll suspend to change interpreters.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Good morning.

Welcome back to the 94th meeting of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs on the day after the anniversary of our filibuster.

For scheduling, the witnesses for the meeting we were going to have next Thursday will be at the first meeting after Easter.

Our second witness today is Mr. Robert-Falcon Ouellette, the member for Winnipeg Centre, who really initiated this whole process.

Committee members will recall that the Speaker's ruling of June 20, 2017, was in response to his question of privilege concerning the use of indigenous languages in the House.

Thank you for being here, Mr. Ouellette, and starting this process. It's my understanding you'll be delivering your opening statement in Cree. As was the case at our last meeting, we've arranged simultaneous translation in Cree.

Thank you very much. This is very exciting and historic, and you may proceed.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB

Hello, my friends, my relations. It is good to see you today.

We have lost our languages. Please help us. I have walked a long pathway.

Long ago, in the winter, I walked about while I was on this cold land. I visited 41 first nations communities. I met so many Cree, my relatives: the Dakota, the Oji-Cree, the Plains Ojibwe or Saulteaux, the Métis, the French people. I heard them, the people, wish for their children to have flourishing lives.

In this great structure, you have money. In the beginning, I was told my work has started for all Canadians. We must all work collectively together, since Canada has written the promises and how processes unfold.

We are related. If things have not happened right, we will change things. Help me. Help me to respect one another.

Treaties are about respect and brotherhood. Indigenous peoples have always had treaties. The Cree and the Blackfoot made treaties using common sense. There was to be no fighting in the winter, as it was too cold and not good to move women, children, and aged populations from their homes to different locations at this time.

If one tribe made war, they sought out the other chief and explained the reason they were making war. Quite often it was that the young warriors had too much energy and were bothering the whole camp. The old people knew that the best way to do things was to send them off to war against the enemy they knew. The two chiefs would talk, and one would be given time to move the women and children and old people. It worked for them, and later in peacetime they would talk about it.

The creation stories we tell about Weysakechak are about treaty. Those world treaties are about water, earth, air, fire, and of course the Great Spirit.

For instance, when a child is born, the mother's water breaks, and this signals that the child is to be born. He then gets his first breath of precious, sacred air, and he is a live human being. He's then wrapped in the warm hide and fur of an animal and enjoys the warmth of the fire and the life-giving milk of his mother. Soon he is playing with the other children outside on their own land, which happens to be Canada.

When the Creator finished creating the land, sea, and air creatures, he called everyone forward and told them to ask for the gifts they wanted to have for themselves, and thus he made treaties with all life on earth. Many of them asked to serve mankind, but they were warned about mankind and what he would be like as the best and worst of all creation. They accepted and understood his warnings. For their understanding and sacrifices, they were granted a place in the hereafter. They would and should be honoured by man in ceremony, which indigenous peoples still do to this day.

It is for these teachings that we respect air, fire, and water in a sacred way. They are included in all our prayers and ceremonies. It is a good way to live.

We all have our own languages, understandings, and ceremonies. As indigenous peoples, we respect the earth and all the children of the feathered, furred, scaled, two-legged, four-legged, and winged citizens. We know mankind is the only creation that breaks treaties continuously. The others have never broken their sacred treaty with us.

By our own common sense, we must pray for the earth and all who dwell here. For over a hundred years, we have signed treaties between our different peoples and countries. The original idea was not about subservience, but rather respect.

Languages must be used to be useful. They must be used by our children in schools, in the homes, and in the rest of society. Our languages must be on TV so that we can see and understand why, where, and when, and see what is happening in our Parliament. It is important to have language.

I saw a written sign on the entrance to a graveyard in Lac la Ronge in northern Saskatchewan. It said, “If we could not as brothers live, let us here as brothers lie”.

Man is represented by fire. Interestingly enough, women are represented by water. With just a single word or a single glance, she can destroy or elevate us. Personally, I would rather be a brother to my fellow mankind than perish in a dirty flood of prejudice, jealousy, anger, and fear.

Language can convey respect and meaning. It represents culture and it defines who we are, our self-identity. It is about learning, education, and knowledge.

Elder Winston Wuttunee asked me to talk about how language is important and related to our belief structure. There are four elements—water, air, land, and fire. Language is related to these four elements. When you take a word in Cree and break it down, there are additional meanings within that word.

Let us take water as an example. Water is women, life, connection to all of creation. It is beauty itself.

Let us look at air. There's fresh air and dirty air. It all has an impact on how healthy we are. It is life, breath. Animals fly in air. We need good air to be healthy.

Let's look at land. We live and we die. When we die, we become the land, and the land is our relatives. It feeds the grasses. It feeds the bison. It feeds us. It is us.

Think upon fire. Fire is also life. It keeps us warm—to cook, to survive. It cleans the land. It is also men. It works best with water.

Let us take one word of the Cree language, nikamoun, which means “to sing”. Nika means “in front”, and moun means “to eat”. Nikamoun, therefore, means “to be fed song”, as it is. If you break it down further, it could mean “to be fed food by the one in front”. This could also be the Creator. To take it a bit further, it means “whoever is in front is feeding us”. This is where the greed for money becomes our sustenance. This has quickly become a starvation diet for us all—nature and mankind too. Do we have the responsibility and the ability to respond, to learn and save ourselves, our children, our mankind, and our world?

Without language, who are we as individuals? We become without a past, unable to understand the thoughts of the past, unable to understand our ancestors in ceremony. They in turn are unable to understand us when we can't communicate in our own language.

Our modern Parliament has a role to play in helping indigenous peoples. You can add to the scales of justice, ensuring that our Canadian languages, our indigenous languages, do not become museum pieces relegated to the back of anthropological shelves on linguistics but are living, alive, and adapting to a modern world—yet they must always remain spiritually connected to the past.

I dream of a moment when the Canadian state, which has for too long tried to ignore and terminate these languages, is part of the process in Parliament of breathing life into our common languages.

Tapwe. Thank you very much.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Thank you for your eloquence. It's a very historic moment here, starting this process.

We'll now go to Mr. Graham.

Noon

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Thank you.

Mr. Ouellette, thank you for being here and for bringing this forward in the House. It is entirely to your credit that we're having this study. I want to make sure that's very clearly on the record.

That said, I'd like to know about the process you went through that brought you to bring a point of privilege in the first place. Can you tell us what happened, what steps were taken, who you contacted, and how we got here?

Noon

Liberal

Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB

Thank you very much.

On May 4, I rose in the House of Commons on an S. O. 31. It was an important issue because there was violence occurring against indigenous women in Saskatchewan and Manitoba. Some had been killed and burned alive, set afire during parties, by people who did not respect women. In order to have perhaps a deeper impact—because a lot of politicians will raise these issues, but sometimes we're ignored and not everyone hears the message—I wanted to make sure that the people who needed to hear it most, especially some young men, would hear that message, so I decided to speak in Cree.

I expected when I wrote the little one-minute speech that it would be translated in the House that I would have the simple courtesy of one minute to be able to express that language so that all people could understand what I was saying. Unfortunately, the interpretive and translation services were not able to provide that service because we can't do it under the current Standing Orders. I understand. Bureaucracy has a way of functioning and working, and bureaucracy is important, but at the same time it's important for that message to get out.

I was dismayed when other MPs could not understand what I was saying, nor were my words recorded within the Hansard. I have spoken many times in Cree in the House, and it's not even an accurate representation of some of the speeches. It simply says the member has spoken in Cree. I might have spoken for over a minute—two, three, four minutes—in Cree, but no one knows what I said.

I brought this issue up as a point of privilege to the Speaker a few weeks after that. I spoke to a number of lawyers and people involved in language issues across Canada, especially people involved in francophone language issues for minority linguistic rights across Canada, learning from them about some of the processes that they had gone through and trying to find out what would relate to indigenous peoples.

I believe one of our colleagues spoke previously to section 35 of the Constitution Act, which states: “The existing aboriginal and treaty rights of the aboriginal peoples of Canada are hereby recognized and affirmed.”

A friend of mine, Karen Drake, has written about this extensively. She believes that they do fall within this provision. Some people have even launched a constitutional challenge, arguing that not only does the federal government have a negative obligation not to stifle aboriginal languages or to simply just ignore them but that it has a positive obligation to provide the resources necessary for the revitalization of those languages.

I could go on perhaps in another section. I don't want to take up all of your time.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

I have one more question and then I will pass it to Mr. Simms, who has questions as well.

In the process of what you went through, did you offer to provide translated text to the translation booth that they could then read into the record as you spoke?

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB

Of course. I provided English, French, and Cree versions, lined up within a chart so that it was very easy to follow. Unfortunately, although it was said that as members we are all honourable, they had to have the assurance—because it is a very professional organization and it does need to have a very high standard in interpretive services—that what I said was accurately represented. They needed assurance that if I had said something a little different, it would be recorded as such in either English or French to make sure that it was proper parliamentary language and also that it was an accurate representation of what was said.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

They were saying “spoke in Cree” is more accurate than what you actually said.

12:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Thank you.