Evidence of meeting #27 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was vote.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Stéphan Aubé  Chief Information Officer, Digital Services and Real Property, House of Commons
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Justin Vaive
Charles Robert  Clerk of the House of Commons
André Gagnon  Deputy Clerk, Procedure, House of Commons
Andre Barnes  Committee Researcher

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON

There are a number of different areas. I could go on for a while, but it's important to note that, for the Standing Orders, there are minor changes that would have to be made—but nothing major—in order to allow an electronic vote to happen. It could go rather smoothly.

Some of the major ones we've already taken care of, such as the presence of members in the House. We've already had a certain amount of virtual presence, and it wouldn't be too hard to adjust that way. The physical setting in the House is the other one. By changing very small areas, we could make it so that members could be physically somewhere else but still present for the purpose of the vote. Tabling presentations is already there. That's been taken care of.

When we look at the whole thing, there's not a lot that has to be changed. It's just a matter of getting some kind of agreement among the members on what they will accept. Then we could proceed from there.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON

Thank you for that. It's not really a matter of rule changes holding us back. It's about getting agreement from all parties.

We heard recent reports in the news about the coronavirus mutating. I've been reading a little bit about viruses and I'm no health expert, but all viruses, apparently, mutate as they copy and regenerate themselves. There's no evidence at the moment that the second strain of the coronavirus would be more deadly, but there is some evidence accumulating that it would spread more quickly. Interestingly enough, I think we're all thinking about the fall. We're thinking about, potentially, a second wave.

I noticed one of your comments was about the principles that you used to evaluate some of the physical options that were provided. One of the them was efficiency. To me, when I think of a long queue, as they've done in the U.K., that's not overly efficient in my view. It's not necessarily the best option for reducing the risk to people's health and the spread of the virus. Would you agree that the best option in the case of a second wave is likely to be a virtual option?

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON

The decision of what is best will have to be made by the House and, hopefully, by this committee as a recommendation. The things that we have to take into consideration when putting it together.... Sure, efficiency is very important. When you have a queuing system, yes, three hours would not be uncommon for a vote. I'm sure that with time, as things get better, it would probably shorten a bit, but that would be probably a first thing to consider.

Of course you want accuracy, which could be covered in both systems, as well as transparency—seeing that the person shows up and gets to vote so that they can be confirmed, or electronically, as Mr. Aubé mentioned earlier, making sure that the authentication shows that this person is actually voting, so that everything comes together.

The first thing that is mentioned when you go to the list of priorities is safety, making sure that our members of Parliament are not exposed to the virus or any danger. That's something that has to be paramount in all decisions made. If people are brought to one place, yes, there is a concern, but if that is what the House decides, then we'll have to work around it and to the best of our ability minimize that danger.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON

Thank you very much.

Mr. Aubé, I welcome you back as well. I always have questions for you, because security comes up when we talk about electronic voting.

Is it not true that all of the House-managed devices, the iPhones that we all get, have facial recognition built into them? Could we not use the biometrics as part of the security for electronic voting?

11:25 a.m.

Chief Information Officer, Digital Services and Real Property, House of Commons

Stéphan Aubé

Yes, the newer devices do. There are still some members who have older devices, but all the newer devices that are being provided to the members of Parliament have built-in biometrics. That could be leveraged as part of our solution, if it were chosen by the committee.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON

Okay, great, thank you for that.

I know that—

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ruby Sahota

I think that's all the time we have, unfortunately.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON

If I may, Madam Chair, just for a moment, I just want to correct a statement I made. The queue would be about 40 to 60 minutes per vote, not three to four hours. The shifting would be three hours per vote, so I just wanted to make that clear. My apologies.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ruby Sahota

Thank you. You almost gave me a heart attack there. I was thinking, “Oh my goodness.” That is still long.

Madame Normandin, please go ahead for six minutes.

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Once again, I'd like to thank the witnesses for taking the time to appear before us and answer our many questions.

I'll start with a topic that's been less discussed. We've spent a lot of time on the issue of recorded votes, but a little less time on yes or no votes, when we are in the House and the Speaker has to decide which side wins.

Have you given more thought to this and how it could be done in a completely virtual or hybrid way?

Are there any thoughts on this?

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON

Yes. This is entirely possible, and it depends on what happens with the Speaker. It can be done electronically, for instance with hands raised electronically, or members could even be asked to respond orally yes or no.

It might be a little more difficult because we aren't in the House. I'm pretty sure there would be a way to do it and that we could very easily adapt.

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Okay.

Similarly, if, as a result of a yes or no vote, five members were to rise in the House, there would also be a way to do that. Is that correct?

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON

Yes, absolutely.

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Great.

Could you talk to us about the possibility of limiting the period during which votes can be held? Ms. Blaney and others raised it. Canada has several time zones, which can make the situation a little more difficult, considering that some members may be far away, and it may not necessarily be a suitable time slot to vote.

Do you think it can be done easily? In other words, could we decide to vote only at certain times, for instance?

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON

To ensure that everyone has an opportunity to vote, we will set a fairly long period of time. The estimate I heard was 30 minutes, to give everyone a chance to vote. Members will also have the chance to vote during the bells.

That said, when the vote is held in Ottawa, we vote in Ottawa. So that's the answer. If there were periods of two or three hours, it would start to drag on a bit too much. From what I've seen so far, it would be 30 minutes during the sitting.

As you know, in Parliament, voting periods sometimes take place from 10:00 a.m. until midnight or 2:00 a.m. You never know. During those hours, there might be times when voting would be a little more difficult for someone in another part of the country, where the time is different. That decision should be made by this committee, in light of what members want to do. Having said that, it would normally be done over a 30-minute period.

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Good.

The committee could still decide that the 30-minute period of bells could only happen during a certain time in the day. For example, the 30 minutes could be between noon and 5:00 p.m. Ottawa time, with no problem.

Is that correct?

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON

Exactly. It's up to the current committee and the House to decide on it.

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Okay.

I'll continue with the issue of voting, which would be a little like the Westminster model, with queuing. I understand that you have looked at the possibility of a hybrid vote, where we could vote this way, by proxy or electronically.

Have I understood that correctly?

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON

Yes.

It will depend on what the committee decides, whether it chooses a hybrid system or something else. There are many possibilities when it comes to voting, and it's the committee and the members of Parliament who will decide.

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Okay.

My next question relates to the technical aspect. Perhaps Mr. Aubé will be able to answer it.

If we decide to use the hybrid model, some members will vote on site, and others will vote electronically. So we'll have to make sure that no one votes twice, and we'll have to compare the two lists.

Am I mistaken?

11:30 a.m.

Chief Information Officer, Digital Services and Real Property, House of Commons

Stéphan Aubé

You aren't mistaken. It's indeed one of the controls that will have to be put in place to ensure that no one votes twice.

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Good.

In a hybrid system, the time allowed for the compilation of votes, for instance, will have to be longer than in a vote where all members vote electronically. Is that correct?

11:35 a.m.

Chief Information Officer, Digital Services and Real Property, House of Commons

Stéphan Aubé

It will certainly take some time to make sure that doesn't happen.

The report recommends a better way of proceeding, whether all members vote electronically or they all vote manually. If the members decide to put the hybrid model forward, we will put in place controls to ensure that this doesn't happen.

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

We therefore agree that, from the point of view of efficiency alone, especially in successive votes where the result of one vote depends on the result of the previous vote, it will take longer to operate in a hybrid way than by using only one or other of the methods.