Evidence of meeting #26 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was prorogation.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Justin Vaive

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ruby Sahota

I promise we will keep to the list and the same speaking order.

One thing I want to mention is that Ms. Petitpas Taylor and Dr. Duncan had been booted off the system and the order changed from what you see. The order for Thursday would look like this: Monsieur Lauzon, Ms. Petitpas Taylor, Dr. Duncan and then Mr. Blaikie. That would be the speaking order for Thursday.

We will suspend for today and reconvene on Thursday. Thank you.

[The meeting was suspended at 12:57 p.m., Tuesday, March 9]

[The meeting resumed at 11:01 a.m., Thursday, March 11]

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ruby Sahota

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 26 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

Justin, how does this work? Do we still see the date as March 9, 2021, or is the date March 11, 2021?

11 a.m.

The Clerk

It is March 11. It is still technically meeting 26, however, a continuation of the meeting from two days ago.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ruby Sahota

Okay.

I used to have some colleagues who would joke and say it was whatever time or whatever date you last left it at, but I think it makes more sense to just say it's still meeting 26 as we only suspended the last meeting. We are picking up from where we left off.

Today's meeting, as always, is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of January 25.

Mr. Clerk, I believe nobody is there in person today. Is that correct?

11 a.m.

The Clerk

That's correct. No one is in the room.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ruby Sahota

Okay.

I would just remind anybody who is in the room to keep the physical distancing that's necessary, to wear your non-medical masks when you're circulating in the room and when possible, even when seated, and to use the hand sanitizer that is provided there.

The rest of us are participating virtually, unless we have somebody sub in who would be in person.

I will be following along in the participants toolbar to see the order of hands raised, but we will pick up from where we left off last time and the order we left off.

If there are any points of order, please, as always, unmute your mike, raise the point of order to get my attention and then we'll hear your point of order. If somebody wants to speak to that point of order, they must raise their hand in the toolbar section.

Don't forget to put your interpretation on, if needed. You can choose the floor, French or English. You don't have to switch between the two, but I would suggest maybe a few seconds' pause between switching languages if you are going to switch from one to the other.

That's basically it. Make sure your mikes are on mute when you're not speaking.

We will pick up from where we left off.

Mr. Clerk, I believe we were on Monsieur Lauzon. Then we have Ms. Petitpas Taylor, followed by Dr. Duncan, and you'll have to remind me after that. I think you have the rest of the list.

11 a.m.

The Clerk

That's right, Madam Chair. Mr. Lauzon has the floor, followed by Madame Petitpas Taylor, Dr. Duncan and Mr. Blaikie.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ruby Sahota

All right. You can keep your hands raised or you can unraise your hands, since we have you on the speakers list in the proper order.

Sometimes when you get disconnected, which happened the last time and has happened many times before, your hand will automatically get dropped off the list, but we are trying to keep an accurate record so that we can see the difference. We're monitoring when that change happens. Of course, we're only human. It can be overlooked. Please raise a point of order if you think I have taken you out of the proper order you should be in.

Mr. Lauzon, please go ahead. You have the floor.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Stéphane Lauzon Liberal Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC

Thanks, Madam Chair.

Good morning. Thank you to everyone for being here.

Today is a momentous day. Each of our leaders and the Prime Minister commemorated the very reason that we are in Parliament and the reason that we must govern the country. They also highlighted just how strained our health care system is.

That ties in with a comment I made at the last meeting. I said that our health care system was broken and strained. As the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Seniors, I was deeply concerned about the challenges seniors have had to face throughout the pandemic, challenges they are still facing. The statements made by our leaders and the Prime Minister reminded us how important it was to move forward and respond. It was also important to take a step back in order to better anticipate the second wave of the pandemic.

At the last meeting, I reiterated what the university professors had told us. They said that the recovery was essential to the way forward, that it was important to start from scratch. We are all gathered today because certain members are trying to prove that the prorogation was not important. The evidence to the contrary is what our leaders and Prime Minister made very clear today: taking a step back is in our best interest so we can forge ahead smarter. Doing so benefits seniors and all Canadians. They have been hit hard by this unprecedented pandemic, which has been an exercise in learning, growing and making tough decisions.

Let us now compare Canada with other countries. In some places, health care workers had to decide which patients would be allowed to die first. Thanks to our health care system, things never got to that point in Canada, because we made sure the necessary machines and equipment were provided. Now, we are delivering vaccines.

As the Prime Minister said, to get through this, we must work together. This is no time for politicking. Yes, we all got into politics to be politicians, but we are in the midst of a health crisis—a pandemic.

Now is the time to turn the page, to prepare a report and to keep moving forward. Since the beginning, the intention has not been to examine the issue of prorogation and move forward. The goal has been to show that the government prorogued Parliament for reasons other than addressing the pandemic.

To put it mildly, I am still quite emotional after the remarks we heard today. Top of mind are all the families who have been affected and all the families who have lost loved ones—fathers, mothers and friends. We all know someone who has been affected by COVID-19. Some 20,000 Canadians have lost their lives. That is a lot of people. We owe it to them to do something. We owe it to them to set political games aside and forge ahead. That is how we will get through this.

The best thing the committee can do is turn the page, prepare a report based on all the comments it heard, and let staff get to the business of drafting a report and recommendations.

We can resume the discussion when we look at the recommendations. That would not only send a good message, but also allow us to move forward.

We have a list of issues we need to address in short order. When it comes to the issues that will shape a potential election campaign, no committee plays a more important role than the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. I was impressed when I looked at the list of issues to be considered by the committee. I would very much like to help improve that list by adding issues that reflect today's reality, a reality that is totally different.

Barbara Messamore, from the University of the Fraser Valley, told the committee that a strong case could also be made that the unforeseen eruption of the COVID-19 crisis following the start of the 43rd Parliament provided a rationale for a new session, with a new Speech from the Throne setting out a fresh legislative program.

All of that led to the throne speech, the springboard for our decision-making going forward. However many times the opposition parties hear that, it seems to make no difference. Their minds were made up before we began discussing the motion. That was clear from the rounds of questions. The questions were subjective, implying that Parliament was prorogued for reasons that had nothing to do with the pandemic.

Today, the best thing we can do is move on. Our team must work together for Canadians, so we can make progress on the issues that matter.

The report on the 2020 prorogation of Parliament is the first of its kind. It marks the first time a government has submitted a report after proroguing Parliament. The government was under no obligation to do what it did. No other prime minister ever had to account for their decision to prorogue Parliament. We know the reasons behind past prorogations. No other prime minister committed to providing a clear and specific explanation of the reasons behind prorogation.

People can suspect plenty of things in politics. All kinds of things happen during a four-year term, and it's a different story when a minority government is in power. We know the government has a minority, but it was nevertheless elected by Canadians. The majority decided that Justin Trudeau and the Liberals would be the ones to govern Canada, like it or not. Now, we must work together to properly address people's needs further to the committee's decisions and recommendations.

Briefly, coming back to the report, I think it shows just how inappropriate the motion before us is. Bear in mind that our government changed the Standing Orders so that our and future governments would have an obligation to be transparent. I would like to read from the report: “Pursuant to Standing Order 32(7), this report shall set out the reasons for the recent prorogation of Parliament.”

It goes on to state the following: “In 2015, our government committed to changing the Standing Orders to ensure that ours and future federal governments remain transparent with Canadians in all aspects of governance, including the use of prorogation. This report is intended to provide parliamentarians, and all Canadians, with greater clarity about why our government prorogued Parliament in August 2020.”

March 11th, 2021 / 11:15 a.m.

Bloc

Alain Therrien Bloc La Prairie, QC

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

11:15 a.m.

Bloc

Alain Therrien Bloc La Prairie, QC

The honourable member was speaking in French, but I was hearing the English interpreter. Could we get that fixed, please?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ruby Sahota

In English...?

11:15 a.m.

Bloc

Alain Therrien Bloc La Prairie, QC

Yes, I was hearing the English interpreter.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ruby Sahota

Yes. That can be distracting.

11:15 a.m.

Bloc

Alain Therrien Bloc La Prairie, QC

Indeed.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Stéphane Lauzon Liberal Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC

Is that better, Mr. Therrien? Can you hear me in French?

11:15 a.m.

Bloc

Alain Therrien Bloc La Prairie, QC

Yes, it's fine now.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Stéphane Lauzon Liberal Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC

Do you want me to speak in English now?

11:15 a.m.

Bloc

Alain Therrien Bloc La Prairie, QC

No. Seldom do I hear someone speaking in French, so please continue, if you wouldn't mind, Mr. Lauzon.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Stéphane Lauzon Liberal Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Therrien.

11:15 a.m.

Bloc

Alain Therrien Bloc La Prairie, QC

Your French is excellent, by the way.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Stéphane Lauzon Liberal Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC

Thank you. I am a pure laine Quebecker, after all.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ruby Sahota

Thank you for alerting us. That usually solves the problem. Just the alert is usually enough.

Thank you, Monsieur Therrien.

Carry on, Mr. Lauzon.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Stéphane Lauzon Liberal Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC

Thank you.

As I was saying, in 2015, we did not know a pandemic was coming. We did not know we would have to prorogue Parliament. It was the decision of a government that wanted to be transparent with Canadians and report on the reasons for prorogation after the fact.

The pandemic hit, and nothing was more warranted than a report on the reasons for prorogation. I want to reiterate that the government had to get things on the right track and set out its priorities in a new throne speech, in response to the pandemic.

The timing of the prorogation has been the subject of much debate. Was it the right time? Was it too soon or too late? Why didn't the government prorogue Parliament when the pandemic began? Some have said that the government should have prorogued Parliament at the very beginning of the pandemic, without knowing all the implications, without knowing that people would die and without knowing the fate that awaited seniors. This debate is even more timely now because of the variants, the vaccines, and the distribution of vaccines in the provinces and territories.

It would be appropriate to take a step back now as well. Let's imagine the government had prorogued Parliament at the beginning of the pandemic. A huge amount of information was lacking then. All along, our government has said that it would base decisions on science and the advice of professionals. How could scientists and health care professionals have predicted the future—the declaration of a pandemic—if Parliament had been prorogued when the crisis first began? The timing of the prorogation may not have been perfect, but it was appropriate.

In 2019, the government obtained the confidence of the members of Parliament in the House of Commons. During the second half of 2020, it became clear that the 2019 throne speech no longer represented the context in which we would govern. What caused the change? The pandemic, of course.

I repeat, the government did not have a crystal ball when it prepared its 2019 throne speech, which laid out its new policy directions. Then, suddenly, the pandemic struck, so different values and priorities had to guide us, as a government. That is a point I did not raise the last time the committee met, but I remembered it afterwards.

We responded swiftly with tangible support for health care systems across the country. On March 11, 2020, the Prime Minister announced $500 million in funding for the provinces and territories—an important decision to support health care all over the country. Some have claimed that the government did not provide health care support to certain provinces, and yet, no government has ever done as much for health care as this one. We worked closely with public health authorities to support health care systems and get equipment to those who needed it. We provided funding, ventilators and support for long-term care facilities, not to mention sending in the military and the Red Cross to help.

We were there for the provinces and territories. That sets the stage and summarizes the gist of my remarks at our last meeting, bringing me to what I want to say to you today. I want to talk about the supports and programs we introduced to help Canadians during the crisis, because we knew the second wave was coming.

I've been poring through the report since Tuesday, and I'd like to read an excerpt from page 4:

Due to this unprecedented national effort, Canadians had effectively flattened the curve by the summer months. But the battle against COVID-19 was and remains far from over. On August 17, the day before prorogation, the Chief Public Health Officer of Canada, Dr. Theresa Tam, noted: Our efforts indicate that we are keeping COVID-19 spread under manageable control but the virus is still circulating in Canada and we must not let down our guard. The shape of our national epidemic curve over time, including what impact COVID-19 might have this fall, will be influenced by our collective commitment and actions to keep infection rates low.

That last paragraph is the important part. Why? Because, if Dr. Tam had known then about the variants and their ramifications, or if she had been concerned about anything other than flattening the curve, she would have said so.

Allow me to explain just how quickly the circumstances of the pandemic can change. In July, people got together more because of the warm weather. We all heard about gatherings in our ridings. There was a huge gathering of young people in my riding. People still gathered for weddings. All those events led to outbreaks that sent certain regions back into the red zone.

Nevertheless, no informed decision-making could have prevented that. No matter how much we told people to do all the right things—wash their hands, social distance and avoid gatherings outside their family bubbles—it was inevitable. On the whole, people have followed the guidelines. They have stuck it out during the pandemic. It is only a minority of people who have made it difficult to get the virus under control, given the alarming rate at which it spreads. When one person is infected, all of their contacts are at risk and they can bring the virus back to their households.

I want to take this opportunity to say that we should acknowledge the whole of our medical system. Essential workers were exposed to the virus every single day. They would come home after work and see their families, their children. Then, they would go back to work. All those doing essential work throughout the pandemic are brave people. They put themselves at risk, and some contracted the virus. The pandemic has been hard on all front-line workers, whether it be paramedics, police officers, grocery store employees or pharmacy staff, but they have never given up.

In the House this week, we talked about the supply chain. That includes not only the factory workers, but also the truckers who cross the border into the U.S., travelling all over to get Canadians the supplies they need. Supply shortages were a real possibility during the pandemic, but there was no such crisis. We never ran out of gas or staples like toilet paper. Everyone helped keep supply chains running throughout the pandemic, doing a good job of managing inputs and outputs to ensure adequate supply for Canada.

On page 5 of the report, the government talks about the importance of developing a plan and refocusing its priorities to face the second wave.

Furthermore, despite the success in flattening the curve in some regions of Canada, and our work to prepare for the fall, it was already clear in August that the colder months would bring new and more difficult challenges, for which we needed to prepare. As I explained, summer was ending and winter was on its way. We all know what happened.

Medical experts from across Canada made it clear that the question was not whether there would be a second wave, but how bad it would be.

That's all from the report, further supporting the fact that the government stepped back to take stock to inform its decision-making. After the first wave, people were at the end of their ropes, they were tired, emergency rooms were full, and hospitals had no empty beds. Every hospital had built makeshift areas for patients. I toured two of them when I went for COVID-19 testing. Workers had used plastic to create makeshift isolation areas for people with COVID-19 symptoms.

All the work was done in preparation for providing this care. Preparations had to be made. No one could have ever anticipated the size of the second wave or its impact on the health care system. We had to get ready. No one knew how bad it would be. It was anticipated that some parts of the country would have to return to lockdown. That meant closing borders and posting police officers where zones intersected to check whether folks could cross from one zone to the other.

My riding is mainly home to cottages and vacation properties. Whole neighbourhoods in a number of municipalities were deserted. Folks could not get to their cottages because of the lockdown. Canadians lost their jobs because of lockdowns; businesses were forced to close, including restaurants. The tourism industry was hit hard. Tourists come to my riding to discover and enjoy the majesty of nature. Municipalities rely on tourism. With travel prohibited, tourists stopped coming to the area. It's tough to keep a tourism-based economy rolling without tourists.

We knew that more Canadians would get sick or die. That was the worst part of the whole thing. We knew the second wave would take its course and that a vaccine was not yet available.

Five and a half months into this pandemic—the greatest challenge Canadians have faced since the Second World War—the people of Canada deserved to know that the federal government had a bold and comprehensive plan. There is nothing in the world more important than being able to tell Canadians what the government can and will do to help them through whatever challenge comes next. A pandemic does not come with an instruction manual. The government strives to make the best decisions possible. It also works with the other parties to come through the crisis as a team.

I don't how it could be any clearer than that. I don't know what more justification the opposition members want. I could spend hours more talking about the reasons for the prorogation and the importance of our work.

Now, I will let other members take the floor to continue this important debate. Later, I will explain my position further.

Thank you.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ruby Sahota

Thank you, Mr. Lauzon.

Go ahead, Ms. Petitpas Taylor.

You're on mute. You'll have to start all over.

No, I still can't hear you.

This is the same problem I was having this morning. I was trying to do my sound check and even though I was unmuted, I couldn't be heard.