Procedure and House Affairs Committee on April 11th, 2024

[Dominik Roszak]

I think it's important at this point to even take it out a little bit further and to remind people, as part of the historical context, that Poland was invaded by Nazi Germany. However, on September 17, it was invaded from the east by the Soviet Union. That's a fact that's often forgotten. Once Poland was forced to surrender, a lot of Polish soldiers and other volunteers joined one of the largest World War II undergrounds—if not the largest—the Polish Home Army, which fought Nazi German occupation and helped save Jews from the Holocaust. Jan Karski voluntarily went into Auschwitz to report back to the Allies about what was going on there. Then, after the war.... Even during the war, you still had the Warsaw Uprising, which was the, kind of, last effort of freedom-minded Poles to free Warsaw before the Soviet Army came in so that some measure of Polish freedom could be maintained—and then after the war.

Poles did not have any large-scale collaboration with either the Nazi German or Soviet regimes. In fact, they resisted both right up until 1989 when Poland finally became free after so many years of Soviet domination.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Chair, I'm glad Mr. Roszak mentioned Jan Karski, but there was another one too, Captain Witold Pilecki, who is credited as being—

[Dominik Roszak]

I'm sorry—yes, Captain Pilecki, of course.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

—the one who volunteered to go to Auschwitz and spent several years there. He saw countless things that he then reported to western allies and then gave the final reports that the Holocaust was in fact happening.

Also, another one I think we saw was a priest named Maximilian Kolbe, who gave up his life for another man.

I'm again going back to the idea of reconciliation in Canada between the Polish Congress and the Ukrainian congress, fixing the damage that's been done between the communities, because we're all on the same side. You've mentioned before that the Polish community in Canada are very strong supporters of Ukraine's fight for its freedom and to remain an independent, free, pluralistic democracy—that's what the Ukrainian congress wants, that's I think what parliamentarians on all sides of the House want.

Having an act of reconciliation, let me put it to you—you asked me if it's a good idea—would you participate in something like this, both in facilitating it and having a presence there in doing something like having Rabbi Moshe Azman of Kyiv or Rabbi Yaakov Bleich of Ukraine...? What could be better than one rabbi? You have two, so if you don't like the first one's opinion, you have the second one. Ask them—they love this joke all the time.

You could have both of them here, bring a mezuzah from Ukraine, and have both community leaders present, the Speaker of the House of Commons, someone from the Government of Canada and from all opposition parties to participate in an act of reconciliation where we literally hammer into the building, preferably on the door of the Speaker's office.... This could be a constant reminder—a beautiful mezuzah—of what not to do and that people need to do their homework before they make parliamentarians make a grave mistake that damages the reputation of this institution, and all of our personal reputations as well.

Would you participate in something like that? What do you think of this idea?

[Dominik Roszak]

Absolutely, I would. I think it's a great idea, and I'd love to work with parliamentarians on this on behalf of the Canadian Polish Congress as vice-president for Canadian affairs. I'm certainly open to working with other organizations like the UCC, CIJA, B'nai Brith and others to foster that reconciliation and understanding. I was born in Canada. I grew up here, and I value the relationships I have with members of the Jewish and Ukrainian communities, and I think there's definitely more we can do. If there's leadership from parliamentarians and a willingness to organize an initiative like this, we'd be happy to participate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

We have Mrs. Atwin for five minutes, through the chair.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you for having me here today. I think it's my first time being at PROC, but I'm really grateful for the insight into this incident.

I'm really grateful for your testimony as well, Mr. Roszak. Thank you so much for being here and for sharing how your organization is dealing with the fallout, and also for offering recommendations and suggestions for solutions and how to ensure this never happens again.

I am a former student of Canadian and international military history, so the other piece about this as well is that I think we need to revisit our histories to really look at how they impact our present and our future. That's a piece I'm grateful you highlighted as well.

You mentioned the importance of properly vetting anyone who comes into our Parliament, but, of course, anyone who might be honoured in the chamber, and, of course, those who support our view of human rights. I appreciated that specific quote.

We certainly recognize the hurt, the horror and humiliation we all felt as members of Parliament, and, for me personally, the chilling effect it's had on future people being honoured in the chamber. I'm very hesitant now. I feel like I'd like to know more about anybody who's suggested to receive applause in the House. I certainly think on a personal level there are certain things we're taking into account, but, again, this is broader on how we can ensure this never happens again as far as the entirety of our government is concerned.

As I mentioned, these are some of the impacts I see as a member of Parliament, but can you explain a bit more about the impacts you're seeing on the Polish Canadian community since the incident? Can you give us any personal anecdotes or anything you've been hearing within the community?

[Dominik Roszak]

As you mentioned, there was shock and surprise in the community over this situation and, from our perspective, puzzlement as to how someone wouldn't know the connection was there. I mentioned how right away—even from the Speaker's quote—we knew there was something off here.

Unfortunately, for the Polish community, this is something we struggle with sometimes: ensuring that history, from our perspective, is understood, as well. The Canadian Polish Congress, in its 90-plus years of existence, has been actively advocating for and teaching people about Polish history and its links to Canada. There are so many great stories of bravery, such as Canadian airmen dropping supplies to Warsaw operation participants who were fighting Nazi-German occupation, or of Poles being trained in Canada to fight abroad. Those are great stories that we try to highlight as an organization to help foster that historical understanding.

For us, it was a responsive shock, but I certainly appreciate your comment about how this has a bit of a chilling effect on recognizing future guests. I hope a way can be found to take the lessons from this, in order to ensure we still recognize people who represent the best of the values we all share. We just have to put in that extra bit of due diligence to make sure we don't do something inadvertently that we will all feel badly about.

I hope that answers your question.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Yes, thank you very much.

In the same vein, what kinds of international impacts do you see this event having, as far as reflections on Canada and the current illegal invasion of Ukraine by Russia? Can you speak to some of those international implications, as well?

[Dominik Roszak]

Yes. I think it was an unfortunate, regrettable distraction from what should have been a very excellent—and which was—visit by President Zelenskyy, along with his speech to Parliament and his presence at the community rally in Toronto. I was proud to be present there on behalf of the Canadian Polish Congress and appreciated that invitation to show our support for the community.

Then, for that incident to happen and the days and days of distraction.... Of course, the Canadian Polish Congress had to address this issue and put our perspective on the record. However, personally, as the VP for Canadian affairs, I wanted to quickly reflect back on the fact that Ukraine is facing an existential crisis. They're fighting for their lives. They're fighting for our values in the west. We have to ensure they win this war, because it is a question not just of their survival but also of western values.

My perspective is also that we can talk about these difficult issues while still focusing on the present. When it comes to the propaganda coming out of Putin's Russia, attempting to connect these things is absolutely outrageous and we have to resist those who try to leverage these things for the murderous aims of the Putin regime.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you so much for that.

Ms. Gaudreau, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Honestly, I must say that our witness did a good job of answering most of my questions, including my last question.

I'm pleased to see that people are open to dialogue and that we can learn from this experience. Much of what we've heard about things like vigilance, rigour and communication can be used in our report. The more uncertainty there is, the more rigorous the process needs to be, even if that means not proceeding.

Madam Chair, I'll give the rest of my time to Ms. Mathyssen.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you very much, Ms. Gaudreau.

Ms. Mathyssen.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you so much.

I'm following up on the last round of questions. I was asking about the security and organization around events on the Hill.

Your organization would have been, I assume, doing similar things at other levels of government—within the provincial legislature, for example. Do you do things differently? Can you provide us with comments on lessons learned that you've seen, where you do things better than we do on the Hill for those kinds of events and security?

[Dominik Roszak]

That's an interesting question. Certainly, in my experience in the Ontario provincial context, there's a strong element of parliamentary.... Some parliamentarians are very much involved in hosting and coordinating events on behalf of organizations like ours. There's usually a champion we would work with who would help organize these things and would also take responsibility for ensuring that all of the necessary work in advance had been done, and, presumably, that the appropriate research had been done. However, I don't know of any specific formal processes that may or may not exist in that regard.

Again, the challenge here is, how do you reconcile instituting some kind of formal mechanisms while also leveraging the informal mechanisms that are based around relationships between parliamentarians and stakeholders, such as ourselves and community members?

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

There have also been many comments today on fact that Putin did weaponize what happened in the House of Commons. There have been movements in the United States and here in Canada to move away from providing support for Ukraine.

I know your organization has done a great deal to support Ukraine. I was hoping you could end the conversation by telling us about this in more detail. You referenced that support, generally, but could you tell us in more detail the sorts of supports that organizations like yours are doing to support Ukrainians here as we move forward?

[Dominik Roszak]

I'd like to remind the committee, first of all, what Poland did in the initial stages of the war. As most parliamentarians will remember, Poland accepted over three million refugees from Ukraine in the immediate days following Russia's invasion. Poland, regardless of political party, has been a staunch ally of Ukraine and has been speaking up alongside Canada on behalf of Ukraine.

In Canada, our community has organized fundraisers, big and small. They range from a few hundred to a few thousand dollars at each opportunity to help and provide aid. There was one member of our community who provided goods that were transported to Ukraine. It's been an ongoing thing in terms of fundraising and support for Ukraine. It's a fight, and it's people stepping up and being there and speaking on behalf of Polish Canadians at rallies, and moments like that, to express our support for our friends in their time of need.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

I'm not sure that we're going to need full rounds, because I think we're wrapping up.

Mr. Lightbound, please go ahead.

[Joël Lightbound, Liberal, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Mr. Roszak, thank you for being with us today.

Like you, this is my first time speaking at the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. I think the work we're doing today is important. It's important to examine this incident, which should never have happened. Thank you for sharing the perspective of the Polish community and the Canadian Polish Congress.

In my opinion, the incident that occurred in the Speaker's gallery in September 2023 definitely shows a fundamental lack of understanding of historical facts. It also shows that we need to shine a light on these episodes in our history to increase awareness.

You were absolutely right about how we can take a clear-eyed view of past events while being very aware that they have no impact on Canada and the Polish community's support for Ukraine, which is fighting the Russian invasion. It's important to keep things in perspective, and you did a great job of explaining that.

I'd like to pick up on what Mr. Kmiec was saying earlier. We're taking steps toward reconciliation with the Ukrainian and Polish communities, among others, who were hurt by this incident. In Canada, there is controversy over a number of monuments honouring members of the Waffen-SS division.

What is the position of the Canadian Polish Congress on these monuments?

In the interest of reconciliation, can there be dialogue with the Ukrainian community about removing these monuments?

[Dominik Roszak]

Yes, there was one particular story that came up several years ago—about five years ago now, I believe—about a monument in Oakville. At the time, the Canadian Polish Congress and B'nai Brith issued a joint statement criticizing the presence of that monument. That position was stated then, and it remains the same now.

The issue is having an honest conversation about these difficult moments in history and really being honest about what happened. From the perspective of reconciliation, we're ready to have those discussions at any time. The question is, to what extent are our interlocutors and our partners willing to have those conversations? As a representative of of the Canadian Polish Congress, as an organization, I would be happy to coordinate a joint meeting to discuss these issues further. I know that other communities have been doing things like this already on controversial and difficult issues like this.

Certainly, we've expressed our position on that issue before, and that's something you can find on our website.

[Joël Lightbound, Liberal, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

That was the only question I wanted to ask.

Mr. Roszak, thank you for your testimony.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you so much.

Mr. Roszak, I wanted to say thank you to you. The perspectives and insights you have provided are very valuable, and just in the manner in which you carry yourself—the congress—we, as Canadians, are really lucky to have you. The fact that you've taken time to be with us today means a lot. I appreciate your time and attention, on behalf of all PROC members.

If there is anything that you're sending—I know that you did have an exchange—please send it to the clerk and we will get it circulated. If anything else comes to mind that you wish you had said or shared, just share it with the clerk, and we'll make sure that all members are aware of it.

[Dominik Roszak]

Thank you, Madam Chair. If I may, I will just quickly say just a few more things in conclusion.

Thank you for the wonderful questions and the wonderful conversation.

I regret my lack of confidence answering questions in French, but I hope I will be able to do so in the future.

Finally, I would like to remind members of Parliament about this May being the first ever Polish Heritage Month in Canada.

We will be doing a flag-raising on Parliament Hill on May 2 at noon. I thank the member for Windsor West for helping the Canadian Polish Congress coordinate that. We look forward to welcoming all parliamentarians and Polish Canadians and others at that celebration.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

We look forward to being with you as well.

Thank you for making an effort to speak to us in French. You speak it very well.

With that, have a really good day. We will be suspending and will start our next panel at the top of the hour.

Have a good day. Thank you.