Procedure and House Affairs Committee on April 7th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Yes.

[Dr. Allison Harell]

I won't add anything additional to what Mr. Newman brought up, except to say that during the COVID pandemic, the jurisdictions at provincial and federal levels experimented rather quickly with a number of alternative voting options. One other additional option to explore was the use of special ballots. I think we learned a lot over the last 18 months about the ways in which those can be used effectively to help voters have access who won't be able to vote on election day.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you for that addition.

Ms. Gaudreau, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Madam Chair, I have an aside before asking my questions. I would like to wish you publicly a happy birthday, which was yesterday.

Once again, I'd like to thank our guests.

I was particularly impressed by Professor Daoust's remarks. I would like to come back to what he said about principles and values.

Initially, we talked several times about the technical aspect, and several solutions have been proposed. What can we do, now, to promote inclusion? I see that everyone has good intentions, but we should not amend the legislation just to look good or so the amendment is symbolic only. I am sure that my colleague will agree with me on that.

I would like Professor Daoust to explain a bit about what we might expect, if we enacted this bill in time for the next election. What will the subsequent impact of this inclusion on the truth and reconciliation process be?

[Dr. Jean-François Daoust]

Thank you for your question.

Yes, I think it's important. However, we seem to be assuming that symbols are minor and of no great consequence, as if something symbolic has no substance. As Ms. Harell said, symbols sometimes have effects that influence other attitudes, including political attitudes.

It was suggested that trust in the federal government, for example, may encourage electoral participation. Measures like these have the direct effect of reducing the cost of participation and making the vote more accessible and easier, and may have a very limited direct impact in themselves. But if measures like these affect other considerations, for example the fact that indigenous people may have more trust in the government, and spills over onto other attitudes like that one, including interest in politics, it might have a bit more more substantial impact.

I don't think we could expect a major impact, for the reasons I gave in my opening statement. Even in the indigenous samples, the people think it's easy to go out and vote. The main objective of this measure is to facilitate the act of going and voting. Since it is already easy to do that, the impact may certainly be limited. It is mainly symbolic, but it can have indirect effects that are more important than the direct effects.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Madam Chair, I don't know whether our witness had the opportunity to hear the earlier testimony.

I wonder about that too, for one thing. We are going to look at the figures, to find out how much all this might cost. There are good intentions and the gesture is a noble one. So all indigenous communities will be respected in doing all this. At least, that is what we hope.

In the earlier testimony, we wondered what we can do in advance to generate interest among people in participating in democracy. As has been said, we have a colonial past. We have to name it, accept it and act.

Could Professor Harell tell us more about this?

[Dr. Allison Harell]

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak at greater length.

In my opinion, we shouldn't say that the indigenous people don't participate in democratic life. What we observe is that they don't participate in political life this way. A number of processes have been put in place in the communities and they have their own political activities.

I think we should rather ask how we can generate interest in participating in this type of democratic process, within the Canadian state. I think the indirect effects that Jean-François Daoust talked about are important, because this is an indication that these processes concern them too and that we want to include them.

I agree with Mr. Daoust: in the short term, making participation easier will probably not mean that we'll see a significant rise in the rate of political participation.

If we talk about including them in the Canadian state, I think that may have consequences in the long term on real participation, more active participation.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

If I understand correctly, Madam Chair, the witnesses are saying that this is actually a first step, but there should be a continuum of concrete measures. That may be an investment, for example. The legislation in place should go a bit further, to highlight the positive consequences associated with increasing participation.

I know my speaking time is almost up and I will have only two and a half minutes in the next round.

Professor Newman, I just want to make a brief comment.

I like the idea of the pilot project. We can make a big shift, but we can also open a little window, reassess the situation, and adjust our aim.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Ms. Gaudreau. Thanks also for your birthday wishes.

Ms. Idlout, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Before I begin asking my first questions, I want to first say thank you for providing an interpreter for me so that I'm able to speak in my language.

I want you to envision—every one of you—all the voters. If you were able to read and write in syllabics, in Inuktitut languages, you would understand what I'm saying. I am really thankful that I'm able to speak in my own language.

The first question I want to ask is of Jean-François Daoust. In your research, have you conducted studies on the impact of colonialism on indigenous engagement and politics?

[Dr. Jean-François Daoust]

No, I have not done research that related specifically to colonialism and indigenous people's interest in politics. However, I have taken an interest in related subjects.

In a study I co-wrote with Martin Papillon and Simon Dabin that was published recently, I measured the effects on indigenous people when they had the opportunity to vote for indigenous candidates in their ridings. We observed that it has a positive effect. It isn't about the effect of colonialism as a general concept, but I touched on it a bit, and we observed that there is a positive effect when indigenous voters have a chance to vote for an indigenous candidate.

I don't know what you mean, more specifically, when you talk about research, but I haven't published that kind of research.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you.

I also want to ask if you have cumulated your research results? Have you compiled the results of your research pertaining to Elections Canada? Can you please tell me if there is any such record of the studies you've done?

[Dr. Jean-François Daoust]

Our results have been published and the gross data come from Elections Canada. I could send you the reference. It is an article that was published in the Canadian Journal of Political Science by Simon Dabin, Jean-François Daoust and Martin Papillon. The data comes from Elections Canada and has been published.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

When you collected your research, did you consult with indigenous peoples about what they think about Elections Canada?

Thank you.

[English]

Have you collected data on the extent of indigenous employment in elections offices?

[Dr. Jean-François Daoust]

We didn't interview indigenous people to ask their opinions about voting and Elections Canada. We studied the data, because this was a quantitative empirical study.

Regarding employment of indigenous people at Elections Canada, I think we added control variables that measured the average age of the population in a riding, income, and education, for example. That's what I recall, but I could be mistaken.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

I'm not sure if I was clear in my question. I just wanted to ask if you have collected data on how many indigenous people were employed by Elections Canada.

[Dr. Jean-François Daoust]

Unfortunately, we didn't collect that kind of data.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

When you collected data, did you find in your studies whether the number of indigenous voters had increased? Has there been any significant difference in the number of indigenous voters when there's a federal election?

Thank you.

[Dr. Jean-François Daoust]

We focused on the number of candidates, not the number of indigenous voters. We didn't look at how the number of indigenous voters varies over time.

Thank you for your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you for that exchange.

We're going to the next round now.

I kind of saw a hint that we could do this. Usually I go to the whole second round, but we're actually going to do one from each party for the second round. It will be five minutes for Mr. Steinley, followed by five minutes for Ms. Sahota, followed by two and a half minutes for Madam Gaudreau, and then two and a half minutes for Ms. Idlout.

Clerk, we'll then switch over to the second panel.

Mr. Steinley, you have five minutes.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thank you very much, including to all of the witnesses who have brought forward their testimony today.

I did notice a couple of common themes in a few of the presentations. I'll ask Mr. Daoust and then Mr. Newman a couple of questions on where there were similarities in their presentations.

One thing that you both said was that language may not be one of the biggest issues with voter turnout for indigenous people across the country. I think that comes with the idea that they're a little less trusting of government sometimes. People really do have some issues around their ability to vote.

One issue was that socio-economic resources are barriers. There were a few other issues.

For this study that we're doing on languages, what would be the two biggest issues that both of you see in trying to have larger participation by our indigenous people across the country, other than having a language on the ballot?

Let's have Mr. Daoust and then Mr. Newman respond, please.

[Dr. Jean-François Daoust]

Sorry, I missed the first part of the question because I was lost in translation, but I picked up the very last bit.

Yes, the cost of voting or accessibility of voting is not the most important factor that predicts whether someone is going to vote or not. This is true for both indigenous people and non-indigenous people.

You mentioned the two most important factors. From the latest study that I recently published, it's political interest—which can be linked to trust, although it is quite distinct—and having a sense that voting is a duty, not a choice or a right. Of course, the word “duty” and the perception of voting as a duty is quite normatively loaded. It raises serious questions, especially for indigenous communities.

I would say the two factors are political interest and voting as a duty.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Newman, do you have something to add to that?

[Prof. Dwight Newman]

One thing that I'll add is the importance of reaching out to indigenous communities across the country to hear from them what the different barriers are. I referenced the report of the Interagency Steering Group on Native American Voting Rights in the United States, and that's one of the things they did.

The situation of different indigenous communities in different parts of Canada is very different, and the reasons that may stand in the way of voting are going to vary a lot between those different indigenous communities. You may hear that in Nunavut, the language issue is very important. There may be other issues that are significant elsewhere.

I would agree with those that have been raised. I would agree with Professor Harell's comment earlier that, in certain specific places, there are indigenous nations that don't regard the Canadian state as legitimate; thus, they don't participate in election processes. That's a different factor in its own category in a sense, but general issues around just having the policies that reach out to indigenous communities....

I hope that all parties will continue to develop policies that support the futures of indigenous people in Canada and the economic opportunities that they need. I think voter interest will be enhanced when indigenous people see all parties coming forward with good policies that advance their opportunities in life.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Newman.

The trust factor, I think, falls on all of us who are politicians around this table to reach out and make sure that we build that trust with different groups across the country. That's something I heard loud and clear from both of you as well.

I am very interested in the U.S. 1975 amendments that happened in a few jurisdictions around language assistance. Is that something we could look at doing? Not to reinvent the wheel, but is there proof that this language assistance program since 1975 in certain jurisdictions has improved voter turnout among native Americans in America? Not to reinvent the wheel, but is there any documentation that this language assistance program has benefited voter turnout?

Was it Dr. Newman who made that comment? Is there any proof that it helps out, and could we replicate something like that program?