Procedure and House Affairs Committee on May 17th, 2022

[Kelly Block, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, CPC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I guess I should ask how much time my colleague has handed over to me.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

It's just under three minutes.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you so much, Madam Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for joining us today. I have a number of questions I'd like to ask, but I'm sure with the limited time I have, maybe some others will follow up.

Minister Mendicino, you stated in your opening remarks that you eagerly await the findings of the inquiry being undertaken by Commissioner Rouleau. My first question would be that this committee is now taken with the topic about security jurisdiction and the precinct security.

I'm wondering if you would agree that this topic about security jurisdiction would naturally be one that Commissioner Rouleau would turn his mind to during the course of his inquiry. I'm wondering what your thoughts are on yet another committee taking up their time to do a study like this, given that we have already one committee undertaking to study the Emergencies Act and the invocation of it. We have an inquiry happening and we have your colleague, Minister Tassi, who is overseeing a group and study called the long-term vision and plan, which is looking at the precinct and all kinds of changes that may be taking place there.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Madam Chair, through you, I would thank Mrs. Block for her question.

Yes, and I think all of us on the government side are very grateful to this committee for studying the issue of jurisdiction and security in the parliamentary precinct. As I've said, law enforcement described the public order event last winter as being “unprecedented” in terms of its scope, size and disruption. I think we should take this matter very seriously.

We look forward to not only your recommendations but to the recommendations that may be put forward by the joint parliamentary committee reviewing the invocation of the Emergencies Act as well as Judge Rouleau, who is undertaking an independent public inquiry.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Really quickly, through you, Madam Chair to Minister Mendicino, do you support your colleague's proposal for a major expansion of federal security jurisdiction within Ottawa and across the river into Gatineau?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Madam Chair, again I think Mrs. Block asks a very important question. Certainly I do think it merits a very robust conversation.

In my view, following the emergency last winter, there is a need to consider whether or not we need to provide new tools and consider how different law enforcement branches work together to maintain public safety. I know that intersects with this committee's work because, of course, you are very much grasped with the issue of the parliamentary precinct.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, and it's very timely because that is exactly the study that this committee is doing.

There are six minutes for you, Mr. Naqvi.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I for one, on behalf of my constituents, am quite grateful to this committee for looking at this really important issue. As you know, Madam Chair, I represent the riding of Ottawa Centre, where Parliament Hill is located.

Wellington Street and Sparks Street are very much part of the fabric of my community, and this discussion around whether or not the parliamentary precinct should be expanded is of great importance to my community because, as we have learned, these are issues that are faced by the residents of my community on a daily basis.

I want to thank the ministers for being here today. I'm asking these questions on behalf of thousands of people who reside in this area and hundreds of small businesses that also operate there.

Minister Tassi, I will start with you. You started talking about the restoration project that the Parliament Buildings are going through. Maybe I'll start at 30,000 feet. Can you share with us your vision and your department's vision around the parliamentary buildings?

Through the chair, what do you see in the future for this entire area as we're going through the restoration project?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Thanks, Madam Chair. I'm pleased to respond to that.

We have before us a wonderful opportunity with the long-term vision and plan that was commenced in 2001 and that we're working towards. We really want to create a space that is welcoming, that is safe and that is inviting for people to come to, not only for Ottawa residents but for people across the country and also from around the world. I think we are making great headway on the implementation of the long-term vision and plan.

Right now, you can look at what's going on with Centre Block. That is the most complex heritage rehabilitation project we've ever undertaken. There's a beautiful welcome centre. We can look at yesterday's announcement of block 2 and having the design bid winner announced. We are moving forward on these various matters.

I would add to that, Madam Chair, that the reason this is so important, and the reason we need to have the experts come in and have a collaborative dialogue, as I said in my opening remarks, is that there's so much effort that has gone into the long-term vision and plan we have to make sure that we get this right.

There are three issues that are at question here: ownership and control, security and governance. These aren't new. They're long-standing. The work this committee is doing is important, and we look forward to the collaboration and working with the committee in order to come to a place where we are making the decisions that are in the best interests of Canadians.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Madam Chair, through you, thanks to the minister.

You just talked about block 2. It was a very exciting announcement. Many people may not know what block 2 is. As I saw it, it means building a new south block of our parliamentary buildings and creating a parliamentary square that, as I see in the drawings, also includes Wellington Street as a sort of pedestrian area, a more inclusive area for people.

Can you share that particular vision as to how you see things looking perhaps five years from now?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Thanks, Madam Chair, for that question as well.

The announcement yesterday was a fantastic announcement. Seeing the design and the drawings that were there was really exciting. I know that many people have waited for this. John Ralston Saul made that comment when he delivered a speech.

I thank the member for that request for clarification. I'm living the file so I'm very clear with what block 2 is. O'Connor Street, Metcalfe, Sparks and Wellington, those are the boundaries. The winning design is available online. I invite people to take a look at that.

There are many advantages to this. One of the things I said in my conversation with John Ralston Saul is that now this can be a space where people who come to the Hill and take part in discussions can look out and see Parliament Hill right in front of them, which is absolutely fantastic, but there's so much more than that. We're very excited about this and look forward to moving forward with this plan.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thanks.

Chair, through you to the minister, Wellington Street is closed at the moment after the illegal occupation, and we know there's a desire by the community that lives around here to keep it as a street that is not accessible to vehicles, very similar to Sparks Street. Does your department have some thoughts on that particular active transportation and more pedestrian-friendly use of Wellington Street?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Madam Chair, through you, the real key point here, and I made it in my introductory remarks, is that we take a collaborative approach that is coordinated, and we form the partnerships. I want to see that before we move forward we have engaged with all partners in order to ensure that we are going into this with eyes wide open, understanding the consequences of the decisions that we are about to make and the impact this is going to have. This dialogue is extremely important, and it's needed.

If you look at memorial square, as an example, there is a monument there that is owned by PSPC. There are three landowners of that land. There used to be four, but Parks Canada passed over that land to PSPC. You can see the jurisdictional challenges. My main point today is that we have to have collaborative coordinated conversations where we are doing everything we can to get all of the information to make decisions that are in the best interest of Ottawa, Canadians, and we're willing to do that as a partner at PSPC.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you to the ministers for being here today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Excellent, thank you so much.

Go ahead, Ms. Gaudreau.

We're going to combine rounds one and two, so you have time.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Does that mean I have seven minutes? I'm very happy about that. That will give us time to settle in.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Those who know me know that I'm a practical person. I speak for my constituents, but also for all of us, as we have to keep ourselves safe.

I noted some points in the opening remarks that I'd like to address now. A lack of clarity was mentioned, as was simplification. In the previous hour, it was pointed out that six services needed to work together. We then talked about an integrated operational centre, with a view to good governance. We were told earlier that this had been set up in the first week.

Now, I wonder. We were told that the RCMP was responsible for ensuring the safety of parliamentarians, staff, and even citizens. That's not to mention the reason we're here today, which is the expansion of federal jurisdiction for the security of the parliamentary precinct and the simplification of all that. Ultimately, it's always a security issue.

My children and some of my constituents told me that I shouldn't go there, that it was far too dangerous. They asked me how I could get there. I was practically harassed by my loved ones, who told me clearly that I wasn't safe. I said to myself that they shouldn't worry, that the government is there to keep us safe.

I have often been asked why it took so long to take action when we had announced what was coming, and we could see what was developing. It wasn't about motorcyclists, but about truckers. We should have taken the bull by the horns, given the signal and announced that we were going to take control of the situation on behalf of citizens, staff and parliamentarians.

Let's be constructive and assume that we're starting the scenario all over again tomorrow morning. Would you say that enough is enough, that we have to put an end to the conflict and take charge of the situation? Regardless of the parliamentary situation, would we take action? Would we have taken action the week before? I need reassurance. I'll let you answer those questions.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

First off, Ms. Gaudreau, I have to say that I very much like your pragmatic approach.

Your question is important and essential to the work of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

The government believes that lessons learned from the illegal blockades need to be studied. If it needs to be done, it's for exactly the reasons you've outlined.

Let's talk about police collaboration. How was this good work done last winter?

You have to understand the context. I would like to make it clear that the issue of security for members of Parliament and the people who work on the Hill is a shared responsibility between the PPS, the RCMP and the Sergeant‑at‑Arms.

I think the agreement reached after the truly tragic 2014 terrorist act is working well, as it has strengthened communication.

I hope the committee will come up with some practical suggestions to prevent another blockade.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Yes, exactly.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Madam Chair, I thank my colleague for her question.

Through you, Madam Chair, I will keep my remarks brief.

I totally agree with the point that is being made about the importance of getting this right. That's why this study is so important, as is recognizing that we have to have a number of conversations. You have to listen to a number of witnesses. We have to engage all parties and stakeholders in order to get it right. PSPC right now is in dialogue with the City of Ottawa, for example, on this very issue. It is important that we get it right.

It's also important to recognize right now that it's challenging, because the jurisdictional issues and boundaries make it very difficult to act in ways that really protect the safety and security of people in Ottawa, of this area. That is why this discussion is so important.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to congratulate you for speaking in French. I appreciate it.

Indeed, we learned from the events of 2014. We must also consider that the reconstruction of the Centre Block means that we have to revisit the Parliamentary Precinct, I agree.

What hurts me is that we are in the capital and this kind of event has happened. I was a lifeguard. I wanted to save my neighbour, but I was asked whether there was any danger to me. Regardless of the rules, I had to ask myself whether I was intervening or not. The question we have to ask ourselves is: Is there a danger to us? The answer is yes. We don't care about the rules; we want to protect those around us.

People are watching and listening, and I'm a little embarrassed. If we could leave our meeting with recommendations that would be implemented quickly to show people that we are responsible, that would reassure me. We're not in camera, people are watching. We know everything we've missed.

There were 97 recommendations in 2014. Which of these have been implemented? Some probably haven't been.

If we can be assured that we will implement the recommendations received, without parliamentary partisanship, then we can save lives.

Thank you for your continued vigilance.

Rest assured that we will always be on guard. No matter what happens, safety must come first.

I am very uncomfortable having that I witnessed a lassitude before action was taken. Safety was at stake. In my opinion, what is missing from all this is the assurance of a commitment.

I would like to see the pragmatic side that I'm demonstrating respected immediately, not in 2025 or 2030, when there will be a mass murder or some other event.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you very much, Ms. Gaudreau. Your comments are very well received, and I think, from what I'm hearing, the commitment is there.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I would like to hear a yes.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

No doubt. In fact, it's a yes.

We need to find the gaps and present your recommendation to the government, which is very eager to receive it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you very much.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

If I may, Madam Chair, I would just add that security is our absolute priority. There is no question, and there's no laxity. It's actually the jurisdictional challenges and the obstacles that are currently in place that we have to address, which is, again, why this committee's work is so important.