Evidence of meeting #22 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Steve Bell  Interim Chief, Ottawa Police Service
Commissioner Michael Duheme  Deputy Commissioner, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Luc Beaudoin  Director, Service de police de la Ville de Gatineau
Superintendent Carson Pardy  Regional Commander, North East Region, Ontario Provincial Police
Andrew Scheer  Regina—Qu'Appelle, CPC
Mark Gerretsen  Kingston and the Islands, Lib.
Rachel Blaney  North Island—Powell River, NDP
Brad Vis  Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, CPC
Kelly Block  Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, CPC
Rob Wright  Assistant Deputy Minister, Science and Parliamentary Infrastructure Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

11:30 a.m.

Regina—Qu'Appelle, CPC

Andrew Scheer

I have one final question.

Did the Ottawa police make a request to the federal government to invoke the Emergencies Act? Please answer yes or no.

11:30 a.m.

Interim Chief, Ottawa Police Service

Chief Steve Bell

We were involved in conversations with our partners and the political ministries. We didn't make a direct request for the Emergencies Act.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Thank you for that fruitful exchange.

I walk these halls of Parliament often and get to gaze at the beautiful portrait of the former Speaker, Mr. Scheer, so I know very well that he knows the rule about addressing comments through the chair. I did not want to interrupt, because we are limited in time, but I will ask members to address comments through the chair, just as we've been able to see our guests do.

Mr. Gerretsen, you have six minutes.

11:30 a.m.

Mark Gerretsen Kingston and the Islands, Lib.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Through you to Mr. Bell, do you consider what occurred in January and February an occupation of the streets of Ottawa?

11:30 a.m.

Interim Chief, Ottawa Police Service

Chief Steve Bell

Madam Chair, I think we've been really clear about our view of what occurred. What started as a demonstration and a protest ultimately became an occupation of our streets—

11:35 a.m.

Kingston and the Islands, Lib.

Mark Gerretsen

I'm sorry. I'm just so limited on time. I apologize.

Mr. Beaudoin, during your opening remarks, you specifically used the term “occupation”. Do you still stand by what you said in your opening comments? Would you consider that an occupation?

11:35 a.m.

Director, Service de police de la Ville de Gatineau

Luc Beaudoin

Madam Chair, I think we have to be careful about the vocabulary we use, and we have to take into account that what we say is interpreted in the other language.

I am indeed talking about an occupation, because in Gatineau, a group of protesters appropriated land belonging to the City of Gatineau. It was an occupation of this private parking lot. However, I cannot comment on the appropriate terminology for what happened in Ottawa.

11:35 a.m.

Kingston and the Islands, Lib.

Mark Gerretsen

Thank you.

Mr. Duheme, when the incident was happening.... You're the closest connection to PPS, so that's why I'm asking you. Are you aware that the House of Commons and the PPS issued a “hold and secure”?

11:35 a.m.

D/Commr Michael Duheme

Yes, Madam Chair, I was aware of it. It would have been the director of Parliamentary Protective Service who talked to both the Sergeant-at-Arms and the Speaker before doing anything.

11:35 a.m.

Kingston and the Islands, Lib.

Mark Gerretsen

Do you know the last time a hold and secure was initiated? Does it happen regularly when there are protesters on the streets of Ottawa?

11:35 a.m.

D/Commr Michael Duheme

Madam Chair, I was the first director of PPS in 2015. Since 2015, I'm not aware of any others.

11:35 a.m.

Kingston and the Islands, Lib.

Mark Gerretsen

So the last time a hold and secure was issued....

I had to arrive on Parliament Hill one day when they were clearing out the occupiers. There was a long construction fence—eight feet tall—set up along the entire Wellington Street side of Parliament Hill. They had to remove a chain in use, locked with a padlock, and physically pull back the fence so I could enter. There were about a dozen PPS and RCMP officers standing on the other side of the fence.

Is that normal in accessing Parliament Hill?

11:35 a.m.

D/Commr Michael Duheme

Madam Chair, what we experienced in the downtown core on Wellington was abnormal. You heard in Mr. Parson's comments that we'd never seen this before.

11:35 a.m.

Kingston and the Islands, Lib.

Mark Gerretsen

Thank you.

Through you, Madam Chair, I`ll go back to Mr. Bell.

Is enforcing the law on Wellington Street, as it currently is, the sole jurisdiction of the Ottawa police?

11:35 a.m.

Interim Chief, Ottawa Police Service

Chief Steve Bell

That's correct, Madam Chair. We are the police of jurisdiction for Wellington Street.

11:35 a.m.

Kingston and the Islands, Lib.

Mark Gerretsen

Through you, Madam Chair, if another law enforcement agency were to come in to assist, there would have to be some form of formal mechanism to enable those officers to assist and enforce the law. Is that correct?

11:35 a.m.

Interim Chief, Ottawa Police Service

Chief Steve Bell

Madam Chair, that is correct.

11:35 a.m.

Kingston and the Islands, Lib.

Mark Gerretsen

Through you, Madam Chair, to Mr. Bell, when he made his opening comments, he talked about shared jurisdiction. It would appear to me, based on listening to his comments, that Mr. Bell is in favour of setting up some kind of infrastructure or set-up in order to have shared jurisdiction there.

Did I hear that correctly, or am I taking a leap?

11:35 a.m.

Interim Chief, Ottawa Police Service

Chief Steve Bell

Madam Chair, I think what you heard me speak about was the importance of this very discussion. We did talk about police of jurisdiction. Our responsibility as the police of jurisdiction, as different people come into different areas and the parliamentary precinct grows, would have to be clearly identified between us and any other party, like the PPS or the RCMP, to make sure that there are no gaps in our response. At the end of the day, for the entire city of Ottawa, the Ottawa Police Service is the police of jurisdiction.

11:35 a.m.

Kingston and the Islands, Lib.

Mark Gerretsen

Do you think that it would be a good idea to extend the jurisdiction to Wellington Street for PPS and possibly RCMP, or however that would be worked out?

11:35 a.m.

Interim Chief, Ottawa Police Service

Chief Steve Bell

I think this is a really important discussion. I'm very happy that this parliamentary committee has undertaken this discussion. I think it's a discussion we need to have with Canadians. We want to be an open, livable, progressive city that hosts the seat of Parliament and allows for the safe exchange of ideas and safe protesting within our area. We're very open to having that discussion and identifying exactly what the citizens of Canada want and how we would facilitate that.

11:40 a.m.

Kingston and the Islands, Lib.

Mark Gerretsen

Okay, you're not at the point where you're saying you want to, but you're at the point of saying you're open to the idea of it and having a conversation about it.

11:40 a.m.

Interim Chief, Ottawa Police Service

Chief Steve Bell

Madam Chair, absolutely. I think it's an important conversation.

11:40 a.m.

Kingston and the Islands, Lib.

Mark Gerretsen

Given that you're the local police force in a city that also holds the capital, there's no doubt that there are added expenses for Ottawa police. Do you know approximately what those added expenses are as a result of being a police force in the nation's capital? Are you provided any funding from the federal government to accommodate and to offset the property tax dollars that would normally fund policing services?

11:40 a.m.

Interim Chief, Ottawa Police Service

Chief Steve Bell

Madam Chair, in that past we've had very fruitful conversations with Public Safety Canada and have identified the extraordinary cost of policing here. At this point, prior to 2022, we receive $3 million a year to compensate for our activities. We're currently engaged in discussing exactly what that amount will be moving ahead, as well as looking at how we recoup costs for what has so far been a very anomaly-filled year.