Mr. Dion, go ahead.
Evidence of meeting #3 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was code.
A video is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #3 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was code.
A video is available from Parliament.
12:20 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Madam Chair, there is always that risk whenever.... The definition we currently have has the benefit of being simple and easy to apply for the family. Friends are not included in the code, so there is no complexity. They are simply not on the list of immediate—
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
I'm sorry, Mr. Dion. They are not now, but there has been a lot of discussion today about the possibility of adding that. That was what my question was.
Through you, Madam Chair, I kind of take the same approach as it relates to training. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I heard Mr. Dion say that he was perhaps in support of mandatory training. If someone chooses not to do the training and then is found to be in violation, isn't that the product of their own mistake? At what point do we start to say that perhaps less is more?
12:25 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
That's a good point as well. In fact, training could be mandatory and people could attend and be absent-minded. We were talking about virtual training—so you can shut off the camera and go to the washroom and nobody will know—but at least it would be a step in the right direction. When we have attendance rates of 7% of MPs, I am not very happy with having gone through the trouble of creating a curriculum for 93% of the MPs who did not attend.
Members of their staff do attend, but in my view, MPs in general should pay a bit more personal attention to these things. Sometimes they are not being served as well as they would be if they paid a little bit more attention.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
Through you, Madam Chair....
I lost my train of thought because the chair was lecturing me. She's doing a great job, though—you are doing a great job, Madam Chair. You would be the only one I would speak to right now.
I think this point is very important. I imagine.... Mr. Dion, what if you ran and were elected in the next Parliament and then someone said to you that you need to do this mandatory training?
It would be a little ridiculous because he would know it so well, Madam Chair. I just imagine there are other people who would be in a similar position. I don't know if making things mandatory is really a step in the right direction or not.
If I have any time left, Mr. Fergus wanted to ask a quick follow-up question.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I'd also like to thank my colleague Mr. Gerretsen.
Mr. Dion, I was talking earlier about my former career as director of ethics and marketing. One of the things my team and I found was that it was all too easy to build up a fairly thick bible of do‑nots over time.
I'll get to my question quickly, Madam chair.
We revolutionized our style by deciding to turn the tables and put the onus on other people.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
We decided to develop the 10 or 11 commandments, which are elements to guide people and describe how they should behave to reach a level where problems are solved.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
Is this something that could make your job easier? Instead of having a code that describes all the things you shouldn't do, wouldn't it be better to establish some preferred behaviours if you want to act in a transparent and ethical way?
12:25 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Anything is possible. It's an interesting idea, but it's not at all the path that Parliament chose in 2004.
If indeed the committee decides to undertake a comprehensive review of the code, as provided for in section 33, we can certainly look at this together.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger
We can look at this together.
Thank you very much, Mr. Dion.
Do you have any closing comments? Do you want to say anything quickly?
12:25 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
The last thing would be to thank you and the members for having spent some time this morning to discuss these matters.
I tell people at my office that my first priority.... I'm an officer of the House of Commons, so whenever you call me, it is my first priority.
12:25 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
No, it's not.
I will remain available at all times.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger
On behalf of PROC committee members and myself, I want to thank you and your team for the work that you do. Thank you for coming here.
We wish you the best of the holiday season, and we look forward to continuing to work together.
12:30 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Thank you very much.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger
Thank you.
We will suspend the meeting as we move in camera.
[Proceedings continue in camera]