Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Oct. 4th, 2022

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Very simply, at the outset, when my symptoms worsened and I had to train myself with the dialysis treatment, there were times when I had a lot of doctors' appointments.

The app allowed me, while being there and being excused from certain duties at the time, to ultimately not miss any votes on the important motions and bills that are introduced. I was able to vote on every single one. Because of that app, I didn't miss one. Very simply, accessibility was extremely important.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Mr. Bains.

We will squeeze in two quick five-minute rounds. Ms. Goodridge will be followed by Mr. Turnbull.

Go ahead, Ms. Goodridge.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thanks to all the witnesses.

I'm a member of Parliament for Fort McMurray—Cold Lake. Before this, I was the MLA for Fort McMurray. I actually resigned my seat at 38 weeks pregnant to run in the 2021 election. I had my son in the middle of the election and came to Ottawa for the first time with a five-week-old. My husband, luckily, took parental leave and supported our family as we did the back-and-forth with an infant for the first year.

That was spectacular. I think that some of the virtual options, specifically the vote app, gave me a space where I knew that there was always an option. I would argue that this is an important function that should continue.

I think that opens it up for more than moms, because there are amazing dads. We have to stop talking in this gendered space that only the mom is the primary parent. In my household, that's not the case. My husband is the primary parent. My husband is the one who takes care of my son when he's sick. My husband was the one who was up five times last night—not me. My husband's back home in Fort McMurray with my son.

I really am disappointed with some of the conversation, as if this is only going to open things up for moms. No, this is going to open things up for people.

I'll get off my little soapbox on that one, but I do think that it's important that we keep that in mind. If we're wanting to have more women and more young people in politics, we have to stop gendering this conversation and only saying that it's good for moms. This is good for people.

In the year since I have been elected here, I have seen a lot of abuse of the virtual system. I've witnessed someone use the virtual Parliament from a washroom. I don't understand why someone thought that was an appropriate way to be participating virtually—in a washroom here in the West Block—but that happened.

We have seen so many abuses. There is a real conversation to be had. In order to strengthen this to allow for people who have good, legitimate reasons to support their parliamentary duties, parameters need to be put in place so as to not cheapen it and then at some point Canadians reject this idea completely.

My question is for Ms. Collins.

What are your thoughts on having parameters around how people can participate virtually? What kind of parameters would you like to see?

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

I think that's a great question.

I mentioned in my opening statement that I would love to see hybrid virtual Parliament strengthened. There needs to be more accountability for ministers and for the government. When you take on the role of a minister, there should be some accountability in terms of being able to answer what that looks like. I think this committee should be looking at that and should get the best expert advice.

We do need to ensure that we have all of the resources when it comes to technical pieces and interpretation, so that virtual Parliament is strengthened. I think there were hiccups in the beginning. The more we do this, the better it can be.

I also want to mention that, like you, I was lucky enough to have a partner who took 14 months of paternity leave. He travelled with me to Ottawa. He's now back at work. He has a very busy job. He has to travel for work—

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you.

I don't have very much time left, so—

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

I wanted to mention single parents and the need to open that up for them as well.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

I appreciate that. Perhaps at some later point someone can bring that up.

The piece that I want to jump in on regarding this is the fact that in the province of Alberta, as a legislature, we sat through most of the pandemic. We had different social distancing rules. We sat in person.

At a certain point, when there became concerns around overall continuity of the legislature, we brought in provisions that allowed for voting. We could vote virtually, but we weren't allowed to interject into speeches virtually. In the Government of Alberta, we've always been allowed to participate by teleconference or video conference in committees, but in the chamber itself, interjections were not allowed virtually.

I would recommend that as this committee goes forward, they look at some of the best practices from different provinces and other jurisdictions. There are ways of strengthening this, as Ms. Collins and some of the others alluded to, that could build upon some of the best practices found in provinces like Alberta.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Mrs. Goodridge.

Mr. Turnbull, you have five minutes.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

Ms. Cadman, my questions will be for you.

I just want to say, first of all, thanks for being here today. I also want to express my heartfelt condolences for both of the losses that you've experienced. I understand that your husband, Chuck, passed away on July 9, 2005—that's 17 years ago—of a malignant melanoma. He faithfully served as the member of Parliament for Surrey North until his final days.

I wonder if you could share with us what that experience was like for you—specifically, watching his two-year battle with cancer and his health decline and the toll that travel to and from Ottawa each week must have taken on him.

[Dona Cadman]

It was very hard. At first, in 2004 when he was diagnosed and had surgery, that was not too bad. He couldn't travel because his body was just not healing as well as it should have. Mentally, he bemoaned the fact that he couldn't be doing his work. He had his secretaries and LAs coming out and giving him stuff. He was working at home. If he could have seen his colleagues—he had so many across parties—it would have given him a little more oomph, maybe a little more hope, a little more smiling and reminiscing with colleagues. It was very sad.

Back and forth was way too hard. His last flight out was very hard for us. He came home, and he was in bed for about five days. He could not move. He was just worn out.

That's a hard thing when he loved his job. I know that when you're an MP, you're there for a reason. The reason is the people who elected you. We have to be there for them.

Thank you.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Do you believe that the travel to and from Ottawa, in fact, exacerbated his health decline in any way?

[Dona Cadman]

Oh, yes, I do. I really do.

The back and forth.... I mean, when you come here, you have a trip of four and a half to five hours. You get off the plane. Sometimes you have to go to another meeting. It's hard, especially when you've been up since three o'clock or four o'clock eastern time and coming out this way.

Yes, travel is hard, not just for us, but for everybody.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you, Ms. Cadman.

I want to ask you one final question.

How do you think things might have been different for you, your late husband and your family if Chuck had had the opportunity to participate remotely in Parliament like we have today?

[Dona Cadman]

It would have made it a lot easier for us. Watching him decline when he wanted to participate and could participate was harder than anything—watching him slowly decline. That part of the politics that he loved was taken away from him. It was very hard. I think that ended his life a lot sooner than maybe it should have or could have.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Would you say, in a way, that having a hybrid Parliament accessible for people like your husband in those circumstances would have added a bit of humanity to someone who is committed, obviously, to doing his job until the end? Just knowing what you experienced, would that have added a little bit of humanity?

[Dona Cadman]

Yes, I think it would have. It would have made him feel like he was still part of the group. You know, politics is very close. You're with your friends, your other.... He was just cut off, and that was hard. Yes, I think it would have helped.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Last, do you think you would have had more quality time with him if he hadn't have had to travel to and from Ottawa?

[Dona Cadman]

Oh, definitely. Definitely.

The last year of his life was very hard, coming back Friday night and then going back either Sunday night or Monday. He would spend most of the day in bed on Sunday just so he could get up and go back to Ottawa.

Yes, travel is hard for everybody.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you very much, Ms. Cadman.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Excellent.

To Parm Bains, Laurel Collins, Dona Cadman and Léo Duguay, on behalf of PROC committee members, thank you so much for your time. It has flown by.

I know, Ms. Collins, that you wanted to add something. If anybody wants to provide anything that they would like the committee to consider, please send it in writing to the clerk. We will make sure that it is circulated.

With that, I hope everyone keeps well and safe.

We will see you soon.

[Brad Vis, Conservative, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Can you outline for our witnesses when submissions would be due for consideration by the committee?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

When we're among members, we'll figure out a date. I'll talk to the subcommittee and find out what we would like to do.

[Brad Vis, Conservative, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

No problem.

Thank you. Have a good day.

The meeting is adjourned.