Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Oct. 27th, 2022

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I have a few brief moments left.

Do you think expanding the parliamentary precinct that covers Wellington Street and perhaps even Sparks Street would help in further enhancing protection for parliamentarians and their staff?

[Cherie Henderson]

I can't comment on that. I would leave that for professionals to determine exactly how, and the size of the parliamentary precinct, but what we as a service can do is continue to provide threat assessments as to what we see occurring in the country, which will hopefully help the policy-makers and decision-makers come to the proper decision.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

On behalf of all PROC committee members, I would like to thank you both for your time with us today. I wish you well for the rest of the day and so forth.

We'll suspend while we switch to panel two.

Take care.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Welcome back for our second panel today at the procedure and House affairs committee.

I would like to welcome our guests. We have with us Michel Bédard, who is the law clerk and parliamentary counsel. From the National Capital Commission, joining us by video conference, we have Alain Miguelez, vice-president, capital planning; and Tobi Nussbaum, chief executive officer. We also have Trish Ferguson, deputy chief with the Ottawa Police Service, who is joining us by video conference. Then, in person, we have Larry Brookson, chief superintendent with the Parliamentary Protective Service.

I would like to start with Mr. Bédard.

Welcome. You have up to three minutes for your opening comments.

[Michel Bédard, Interim Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons]

Thank you Madam Chair and members of the committee for your invitation to appear today.

My name is Michel Bédard, and I am the interim law clerk and parliamentary counsel of the House of Commons.

The Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel provides comprehensive legal services to the House of Commons and its members. I trust that my testimony today will assist the committee in its study on the extension of Parliament Hill and the parliamentary precinct.

Under the Parliament of Canada Act, the Parliamentary Protective Service, or PPS, is responsible for all matters respecting physical security throughout the parliamentary precinct and Parliament Hill. Parliament Hill is defined in the act as “the grounds in the City of Ottawa bounded by Wellington Street, the Rideau Canal, the Ottawa River and Kent Street.” The “parliamentary precinct”, also defined in the Parliament of Canada Act, includes the premises used by the House of Commons, the Senate, their members and other parliamentary entities. They “are designated in writing by the Speaker of the Senate or the Speaker of the House of Commons”.

The practice has been for the Speakers to make a joint designation that is tabled before Parliament.

The Government of Canada, through the Minister of Public Services and Procurement Canada, has ownership and general care over the grounds of Parliament Hill and the parliamentary buildings. This is, however, subject to the House’s right to administer its internal affairs free from interference, which is usually exercised under the authority of the Speaker as guardian of the House’s privileges, and that of the Board of Internal Economy pursuant to its responsibility over the premises of the House.

In addition, decisions pertaining to the use of the grounds of Parliament Hill are taken under the authority of the Committee on the Use of Parliament Hill. The Committee is co-chaired by the House of Commons Sergeant-at-Arms and the Director of Senate Corporate Security on behalf of their respective Speakers. Its membership also includes representatives from various government departments.

The Parliamentary Protective Service's mandate is limited to physical security; it does not police the Hill or the parliamentary precinct, and its protection officers are not peace officers. The police of jurisdiction for Parliament Hill and the parliamentary precinct is the Ottawa Police Service. However, their conduct of business within the precinct must take into consideration parliamentary privilege.

If Parliament so wishes, Parliament Hill could be expanded to include parts of Wellington Street and Sparks Street by making an amendment to the definition of “Parliament Hill” that is found in the Parliament of Canada Act. This will extend the PPS mandate to provide physical security on these streets.

I know that both streets are currently owned by the City of Ottawa. Making these streets federal property will make it easier for PPS to fulfill its mandate.

I would be pleased to answer any questions members may have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Mr. Bédard.

If I understood correctly, Mr. Nussbaum, you will be speaking on behalf of the National Capital Commission. Welcome, and the floor is yours for three minutes.

[Tobi Nussbaum, Chief Executive Officer, National Capital Commission]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Good afternoon.

I am happy to be with you again today.

I am accompanied by Alain Miguelez, vice-president, capital planning and chief planner at the National Capital Commission.

In our role as principal planner of the NCR, we are pleased to be here with you today to provide our observations on the long-term impacts of the closure of Wellington Street.

In June we had the opportunity to highlight the importance of rethinking the stretch of Wellington Street in the parliamentary precinct as the symbolic heart of our nation along Confederation Boulevard. We discussed with you at that time how its reimagining should occur in the context of a number of ambitious capital and city building projects currently under way. These include projects such as the Cliff plant, the Alexandra Bridge replacement, the revitalization of the former Nepean Point and, of course, the rehabilitation of Centre Block.

We feel that this reimagining could also usefully think about studying and enhancing the street in its entirety from the Portage Bridge all the way to the east where it meets Rideau Street, which is an important intersection at the heart of our capital. This exercise could also fit well with an exercise that the NCC is currently engaged with, which is the renewal of one of our master plans, the capital core area sector plan, which will set out the vision for this area for the next 10 to 15 years.

From the NCC's perspective, it is also an opportunity to reimagine the space and contribute to an enhanced visitor experience and overall public realm, and to reconsider how the public will interact with the parliamentary precinct and experience the site of Canada's seat of government. This could include animation of the area and opportunities to build on the NCC's work with PSPC, expanding and complementing the current retail offerings on Sparks Street. This would give parliamentarians, their staff, residents and visitors a new way to interact with the area, while also contributing to the economic recovery and sustainability of the core of Canada's capital.

On the question of public transit, which I know we discussed in June, the work of the NCC transit office is well under way. This office will work and help the advancement of la Société de transport de l'Outaouais's tramway project. We see this project as a vital part of the reimagining of Wellington Street and a crucial step in enhancing interprovincial transit options.

In the longer term, the National Capital Commission hopes that the interprovincial transit loop will be implemented.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you for your comments.

We look forward to hearing more during the question and answer session.

Deputy Chief, we'll go over to you for up to three minutes.

[Trish Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief, Ottawa Police Service]

Good afternoon, and thank you, Madam Chair and committee members, for inviting me here today.

I am Acting Deputy Trish Ferguson, and I'm responsible for overseeing information, investigations and serious and organized crimes at the Ottawa police.

We've been following the discussions at these committee meetings, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to again offer the perspective of the Ottawa police.

The testimonies we've heard and our recent experiences in policing large events in the city have confirmed the three priorities we previously identified to you. These are jurisdictional responsibilities, infrastructure and resources.

As you're aware, the Ottawa Police Service is the police of jurisdiction for the city of Ottawa. In fulfilling this role, we rely on co-operation and collaboration with other law enforcement agencies. As such, the service is used to dealing with questions of jurisdiction; however, the occupation we experienced in February confirmed the need to further clarify and even reconsider matters of jurisdiction around the Wellington corridor.

Jurisdictional boundaries within and around the parliamentary precinct need to be clearly defined. Collaborative strategies and responsibilities also need to be clarified in order to ensure that, in times of crisis and emergency, the statutes, regulations and authorities are already established and understood by all parties. This is particularly critical for situations in which events spill over established boundaries.

The second issue we ask you to consider is infrastructure. Since February, we have had several large events in Ottawa, such as “Rolling Thunder” and Canada Day, and we currently lack physical infrastructure that can easily and quickly be put in place to protect key locations and personnel. These events again stretched our resources thin, in part because we lacked adequate security infrastructure. For example, we had to bring in heavy trucks to establish a vehicle exclusion zone around Parliament. This was less effective and less reliable than security infrastructure would have been if we had set up, for example, bollards and protected pedestrian areas.

The third issue, as we discussed before, is the need for adequate resources for the police service. We must be prepared to maintain public security and protect the residents of Ottawa, no matter the size and scale of events. We also know that we cannot continually call on police from other jurisdictions across the province to help police events in our city. The demands placed on our service in the past year have strained our members and highlighted the need for adequate resources so we can safely and effectively respond to the needs in our communities, make intelligence-led threat assessments and enhance inter-agency collaboration.

Members of the Ottawa Police Service are committed to protecting Ottawa as an open and peaceful capital city, one where residents and visitors can move freely and that everyone can fully enjoy.

Thank you for your time. I look forward to answering any questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

We look forward to that as well. Thank you.

Now we go to Chief Superintendent Larry Brookson.

Welcome to PROC. You have three minutes.

[Larry Brookson, Acting Chief Superintendent, Parliamentary Protective Service]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate the promotion.

Good day, Madam Chair, honourable MPs and fellow witnesses.

I am happy to see you here again today to continue our discussion about operational security issues in the parliamentary precinct. I would remind you, as the acting chief superintendent of the Parliamentary Protective Service, that these discussions are of considerable importance for my colleagues and me.

While my opening remarks are brief, I will take this opportunity to raise a few points that were identified in my last appearance.

The service is responsible for the physical security of parliamentarians, staff, employees, visitors, buildings, grounds and assets on Parliament Hill and the precinct. Therefore, how the service trains its employees, how the employees engage with one another, how they collaborate and build their respective networks with our valued partners and how the service overall carries out its commitment to continuous learning and improvement are all critical components in how well our human assets can perform their duties and deliver security services to this community.

Beyond these distinctly human capabilities, and as I mentioned in my previous appearances, the service must also rely on how physical barriers and technologies need to be incorporated in order to better deliver the mandate. This stays true regardless of the precinct boundaries.

Operational preparation and the Parliamentary Protective Service's response capacity therefore depend on how human resources, physical barriers and technology function together to create an integrated physical security system that serves our parliamentary community as well as possible.

While security information can sometimes be sensitive, I recognize that today's meeting is being conducted publicly. Please trust that I will contribute to the discussions as openly as I can.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Mr. Brookson.

Now we will start our six-minute rounds, with Monsieur Berthold and then Monsieur Naqvi.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for being here with us today.

Ms. Ferguson, you said there was not enough equipment to control big events around Parliament Hill. Does that mean technical methods and infrastructure exist that would allow Wellington Street to be secured during big demonstrations, while allowing it to be kept open the rest of the year?

[Trish Ferguson]

Thank you for your question. I am going to answer you in English, because I am more comfortable in that language for the technical terms.

You're asking if there are existing structures that could be put in place. From a policing perspective, I think we have many partners throughout the world who are policing capital cities and who we could potentially rely upon for best practices for any existing structures.

We have changed our processes in a number of larger demonstrations based on what we've seen around the world and on some of the trends that have taken place. I think back to Nice, France, several years back. That incident altered the way we respond to major events here, in terms of making sure that we are considering all potential threats and sources of threats. I believe that's something that could be put into place.

There are places where we'll keep the area open and free at times when everything is fine, but where we can have some infrastructure that would be rapidly put in place should we face a moment of threat or crisis.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Given that you seem to be familiar with what is going on outside Canada, could you send us a list of the places where protective infrastructure has been installed for problematic times, while maintaining access by vehicles and pedestrians the rest of the year?

[Trish Ferguson]

Yes, I can send you a list of those details.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you.

I want to talk to you a bit about a little incident that happened to me on Wellington Street. At this time, the most dangerous thing on Wellington street is that it is a street with no real purpose. There are cars driving on it and pedestrians walking around pretty much everywhere in the street, plus bicycles and scooters; it is an absolutely dangerous place.

I have to tell everyone that last spring, I almost lost my life on Wellington Street. It was when the traffic lights were still operating to control vehicle traffic. One of my colleagues stopped me at the last minute, just before a car flattened me.

I want to thank the Parliamentary Protective Service, which helped me bring this up with the municipality of Ottawa. I wrote to the mayor of Ottawa and received a reply from a political staffer. However, because a traffic study had to be done, it took a month before the traffic lights were removed and stop signs put up, when it could have been done in two days.

At present, the lives of parliamentarians and users of Wellington Street are being put in danger by maintaining the street's undefined status. What can we do to improve the situation and protect the parliamentarians and visitors who are currently using this artery?

Is it the role of parliamentarians to go and do traffic control and tell people to stop and pay attention? I don't think so. When politicians are allowed time to make decisions to protect people, we have cases like mine, where it took me a month to get an answer.

I don't think we are best placed to decide the best measures. Do you sincerely think that parliamentarians, elected representatives, are best placed to make decisions about the security of a place like Wellington Street?

[Trish Ferguson]

What you have described shows exactly why we need to put something definite in place, with the infrastructure we need. I admit that a month is a long time, but I can't speak for the City of Ottawa or the decision that was made.

At the Ottawa Police Service, we absolutely believe in the security of the public and parliamentarians.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

My next question is for more or less everybody.

We have to decide whether to expand the Parliamentary Protective Service's security perimeter. What I understood from Mr. Bédard's testimony is that the Parliamentary Protective Service is supposed to protect individuals, not control vehicle speeds. The role of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police is to anticipate threats. The role of the Ottawa Police is to make sure that municipal bylaws and other provincial regulations are obeyed.

How can parliamentarians make such an important decision as the decision as to which security service should be in charge of part of a street or part of an area?

Mr. Brookson, do you want to answer?

[Larry Brookson]

Thank you for your question.

Once again, I am going to answer in English. It is easier for me to use technical terms to explain the situation properly.

In my previous appearances, I've been clear on needing the authority to make the precinct safe. I don't have the authority over Wellington Street. All I can do is have our protection officers keep eyes and ears on what's happening on Wellington. To this point, I can't engage on Wellington.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Mr. Naqvi, you have the floor.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Through you to Mr. Nussbaum, who knows that I listen to every one of his words very, very carefully, always, I'm still hanging on “finally”. Can you finish your thought?

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

The suspense is killing me.

[Tobi Nussbaum]

Well, I hope I don't disappoint, Mr. Naqvi.

I just wanted to reiterate that I think an important part in looking ahead to the future of Wellington Street is to double down on the collaboration and co-operation between federal and municipal partners. Some of them are here with you during this session. There are others, of course, such as PSPC and the City of Ottawa. I just wanted to underline our commitment to doing exactly that as we move forward.

Thank you.