Evidence of meeting #37 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.
A video is available from Parliament.
11:30 a.m.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB
The result from the last election was that on election night the Liberal Party of Canada, which is now the government, fell, I believe, 11 ridings short of a majority. Would you say that's correct?
11:30 a.m.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB
If you look at the closest 11—and I'll just say 13, because there were some things that happened afterward—13 ridings was the number of ridings that the Conservative Party subsequently asked about foreign interference in. In the closest 13 ridings that the Liberal Party could have won, the difference between their candidate winning and the person who did win, in my estimation, falls a little over 20,000 votes. Out of 17 million votes cast, the difference between a majority and a minority government in this country was 0.1% of the ballots cast. How easy is it for a foreign state actor to move the needle by 0.1% in this country?
11:35 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
I don't have an answer to that question. I don't know the effectiveness of any interventions, be they domestic or foreign. I have to say one aspect of the work we do is that we're not equipped to distinguish and we have no means of ascertaining, when we're seeing, for example, debates on social media or criticism of a candidate or a party—and we do see some of that—whether that criticism is originating from a foreign source or a domestic source and whether it's a legitimate part of the actual process or an attempt at foreign interference. That's something that belongs to the national security agencies. Beyond that, it's hard to ascertain what the impact would be. I recognize that the challenge here is how we determine whether any aspect of that would have an impact.
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB
My former colleague, Kenny Chiu, who lost in the last election, was, prior to the election, very vocally critical of the things that were happening in Hong Kong, and he has alleged quite publicly that the Chinese Communist Party is using software that might not be physically available for everybody to see, but it is using chat groups and so on. These chat groups can get quite large, involving tens of thousands of people. In light of the fact that we've had people report in this country about unofficial Chinese Communist Party police stations or enforcement stations operating in certain parts of the country, how reasonable would it be to assume that these kinds of things are happening so covertly that we wouldn't be aware of them happening or of their significance?
11:35 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
It's quite possible that some of that is happening, and that is a matter of concern. I think that's why we have national security agencies to look into these matters. I do not have the mandate or capacity to look into that. That said, if there are offences under the act or complaints that the commissioner receives that fall within the parameters of the legislation, then there are ways for her office to look into those. In terms of our agency, it's very difficult to ascertain to what extent there is foreign activity to influence the election.
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB
You said in your opening remarks that Canadian intelligence services—both CSIS and the Communications Security Establishment—have been in contact, or you are in contact with them. They obviously discuss things with you. What can you publicly share with this committee insofar as your instincts towards the information that you've received from our security establishments go?
11:35 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Prior to the election, we received briefings that informed at a general level of the trade craft of certain countries and the interest some countries may have in Canadian elections. It's fairly high-level information. They would inform us of anything that was actionable for us. The understanding is that if there is something that relates to the voting process, for instance, that I need to know in order to run the election, then I would need to be made aware of that. I have not been made aware of any of that, any activities in that regard. Beyond that, they are the ones who are concerned with foreign interference.
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB
I have just a quick question. Would returning to enumeration help you, help your organization, improve the integrity of the election system?
11:35 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
No, it would not at all. I think, very clearly, moving to enumeration would be to the detriment of the integrity of the election.
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON
Thank you.
I want to thank all the witnesses for being here today once again to help strengthen our democracy.
My first question is for either the Office of the Commissioner or for Elections Canada.
You are a party to this SITE task force that has been created. Even though it may not be your role to collect the information, I'm sure, at least at a high level, you are all briefed about the different threats and the nature of those threats that happen.
A report by the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, “Foreign Interference Threats to Canada's Democratic Process”, in 2021 said that although Canada's electoral system is strong, ongoing foreign interference threatens the integrity of democratic institutions and Canadians' trust in them.
It covers foreign interference and different techniques, which go from cybersecurity to elicitation, cultivation, coercion and illicit and corrupt financing. We have been made aware through different reports that when it comes to cybersecurity, countries like Russia, China and Iran are some of the top offenders. What countries other than those three have been involved in more of these covert operations that you have been informed about?
11:40 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
You've named the countries that come to my mind. I'm sure you'll be hearing from the security agencies that follow us, but I don't have any additional information for the committee.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON
No other countries have ever been mentioned, or you haven't been made aware of operations on the ground in any countries other than these three.
11:40 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Off the top of my head, I don't recall. I want to be careful. It's difficult to remember whether or not the information you have is something that's sensitive. I would not want to put out there any information that I should not be sharing publicly, but quite frankly, there are no countries other than those that come to mind.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON
Perhaps we're saying that these are the publicly known threats. You may be informed of other countries' involvement, but you may not be able to share that information with us here today. Is that what you're saying?
11:40 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Well, yes, and perhaps I should add that the source of a threat is something that is difficult to ascertain, whether that threat is misinformation or cyber-related. I'll let the cyber experts speak to that. It's something that during an event is not immediately apparent. You're seeing incorrect information. Whether it's misinformation or disinformation, whether it's foreign or domestic, it's just incorrect information, and we need to deal with it. The same is true, from our perspective, with cyber-attacks. We need to have walls. We need to have protections.
In terms of who's behind those cyber-attacks, this is, of course, of interest to Canada, but in terms of our role, the important thing is that we protect our infrastructure.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON
It's not just cyber-attacks but other types of operations that could be influencing. If not other countries, could you state whether there are perhaps third parties or entities located in other countries that come to mind?
11:40 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
I'm not aware of any, Madam Chair.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON
Okay. My next question is about social media companies.
Many social media companies have signed the declaration on electoral integrity, which commits, among other things, to addressing disinformation. We know algorithmic transparency is an issue when it comes to these social media companies. A lot of those algorithms originate from the U.S. Many of these social media companies originate from there as well.
What impact do you think that has in terms of their being considered foreign influence on elections?
11:40 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Again, this is a bit of a laced question.
We have to be careful: the fact that there are activities from outside Canada does not necessarily mean there has been interference. Under the Canada Elections Act, the concept of interference refers to very specific offences. So it is hard to untangle all the elements of your question.
I think Canadians would have more confidence in the electoral process if they were able to know what the social media platforms' policies are in relation to how misinformation, disinformation and illegal content are handled. At present, it is a black box. We have protocols in place for letting them know our concerns, but we do not get the transparency from them that we would hope for and that would assure us that actions are being taken to reduce the impact of misinformation or disinformation.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON
I've run out of time, but I just want to thank you for all your hard work in making sure elections are run fairly and smoothly.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger
Thank you.
Ms. Gaudreau, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
11:40 a.m.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
Given the short time I have, I will keep to very precise questions.
My first question is for the the commissioner.
Ms. Simard, you said that you work primarily on the basis of public complaints. You also said just now that there had been interference, but there had been no complaints during the last two parliaments.
So I am wondering: if there are no complaints, what type of monitoring to you do? I imagine you are going to do some fine-tuning, inspecting or more analyzing of what there is.