Evidence of meeting #41 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was election.
A video is available from Parliament.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I get Mr. Blaikie's extra time as well.
Mr. Perrault, I want to start off by asking a follow-up question.
When you are made aware during a writ period of information of wrongdoing or potential wrongdoing, at what point would you think it's sufficient enough to make the public aware of the threat of foreign interference during a writ period?
12:45 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
That is, Madam Chair, I think, a highly theoretical question in the sense that, typically, financial violations do not come to light during an election period. I've never seen a situation where that occurred.
Again, we have a system guided by the rule of law. If I believe I have evidence that there was an illegal contribution or any violation of the act, my role is to refer that to the commissioner. Until the commissioner completes her investigation, I think it's premature for me to speak to any particular violation.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
Thank you for that.
In going back to your opening comments, you flagged, as you have in the past, concerns that were raised prior to the 2019 election about the risks of foreign interference. That was your first election as Chief Electoral Officer, but you had been involved with the organization for a number of years prior to that. I'm curious about what changed between 2015 and 2019, from your perspective, that flagged that risk more clearly for 2019 versus previous elections.
12:50 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
The answer is that it was very clear after the 2016 presidential election in the U.S. After that election, I believe in January or February, I did meet with the Privy Council Office. I did reach out to the Communications Security Establishment to start preparing for our election, because I realized that things had changed.
The concerns we had in the past around disruptions to the elections were more about natural disasters or policing matters, but then they were of a different nature.
I think I was not the only one to draw that conclusion. We saw a number of actions taken by the panel that was put in place. Different players reacted to that, but I think that was very clearly the starting point.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
Now, with the benefit of 2019 and 2021 and looking forward to the 2020-something election, where do you see the biggest risk from foreign actors? Going forward, where do you see the biggest risk?
12:50 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
I think that's a very good question for CSIS. I take my information in that regard from CSIS, and we will continue to meet.
So far, what we know on our side is very much what was said in the public report of CSIS prior to the 2021 election. It may evolve over time. I have no reason to doubt that we'll keep sharing information as we prepare for the election.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
Thank you, Mr. Perrault.
Madam Chair, I'll turn it over to Mr. Cooper.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Mr. Perrault, through you, Madam Chair, I know you cannot speak to the contents of the Global News report, but I'll put to you a hypothetical based on that report.
If there were $250,000 that were directed by a foreign consulate through proxies and then funnelled into campaigns of federal candidates, first of all, would you agree that it would violate multiple sections of the Canada Elections Act?
November 22nd, 2022 / 12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Among the sections in that hypothetical that could be violated would be section 363 prohibiting foreign money to candidates; section 367 pertaining to the maximum contribution limit of $1,500 per person; section 368 prohibiting any person or entity from circumventing or attempting to circumvent the prohibition of foreign money and the maximum contribution limit as well as concealing or attempting to conceal the identity of the source of a contribution or acting in collusion with another person or entity for that purpose; and section 370, which prohibits indirect contributions where the source of money comes from another person or entity.
Would you agree that all of those sections could be implemented?
12:50 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
On the face of it, under your hypothetical, yes.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
We often hear the assertion that the overall election was free and fair. Just because the overall election is free and fair, I would ask if you could clarify that it doesn't negate the possibility there could be interference or could be instances of illegal activity. There could be instances of violations of the Canada Elections Act that would not impact the overall integrity of an election. Do you concur?
12:50 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Madam Chair, in every election there are signs that are unfortunately destroyed. There are all kinds of irregularities that take place, but that does not negate the overall fairness of the election. It doesn't mean that these behaviours are right or that they're fair, but there's quite a difference between seeing illegal behaviour and drawing inferences regarding the results of the election.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I'd also like to thank Mr. Perrault for his presentation.
Mr. Perrault, you are the fourth chief electoral officer that I have had the privilege of meeting in my lifetime, after Mr. Hamel, Mr. Kingsley and Mr. Mayrand. We have a fine and long-standing tradition in Canada.
I would just like to confirm that you believe Canada has some of the best mechanisms and regulations in the world for the proper conduct of elections.
12:55 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
I think, generally speaking, that Canada has an excellent regime.
One of the things that makes it excellent is that it is reviewed on a regular basis. Not only that, but this committee plays an important role. After every election, the chief electoral officer prepares reports, learns lessons from the election and makes recommendations about changes to the act. My predecessors did so, as I have in turn. These recommendations are then very seriously examined by the committee. There is a solid tradition of conducting these examinations in a non-partisan manner. The fact that we strive to improve the electoral process in a non-partisan manner contributes enormously to the credibility of the Canadian regime.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
I would imagine that if we had to start over from scratch, you too would establish a federal elections commissioner position and a chief electoral officer position, to ensure that irreproachable and non-partisan people organize elections in Canada; is that right?
12:55 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
One of the features that makes our system so solid is that we have an elections administration that is independent from the government, and headed by a chief electoral officer appointed by the House of Commons. This is not something you see everywhere around the world and it's an important aspect.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
Yesterday evening, when I read the notes you provided, I saw that you did not want to take a position on this question today because you did not have all the facts and could not could not draw conclusions based on a Global News report. Why is that?
12:55 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Process matters.
That's simply all I would say about it.
It's important to follow the procedures in place. We're talking here about potentially very serious violations of the act that would be very damaging to elections. We therefore need to take the time to ensure that the evidence is known and reviewed, and that the process is followed. This includes ensuring the independence of the commissioner, who would conduct her investigations with all of the tools available to her, without any interference. You have to look carefully before drawing conclusions.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
They are nevertheless serious allegations, and I take what's in the report seriously, as do all other parliamentarians, I believe. I would even go so far as to say that the vast majority of people who actually actually put their name on a ballot take it seriously, whether or not they have a good chance of winning in their riding. Is that your point of view also?
12:55 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Definitely. When candidates decide to run, something that you've done several times, we send them a letter reminding them of the importance of complying with the act. We send them a message about maintaining the reputation of candidates and the electoral process. They are also reminded that if they have any concerns or see anything that doesn't appear to be consistent with the act, they should report it to Elections Canada or to the office of the commissioner of Canada Elections. All participants have a role to play and I don't have the impression that our system is corrupt.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
What message can you send out to ordinary people listening to us talk about the Global News report? Do you take it seriously. Does the commissioner of Canada Elections take it seriously? Are you looking into the allegations made in this report?
12:55 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
All the participants are taking it seriously. I have no reason to doubt it.
As I said in my opening address, the national security organizations we have been talking about were very much aware of issues of this kind prior to the election. They kept us informed accordingly, and we in turn transmitted relevant information to the political parties. The then commissioner also took the matter seriously. The current commissioner even wrote to the committee, and I think she stated very clearly that she took it seriously.
The message people need to receive is that we have institutions that are working properly and that we need to let them do their work.
