Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Feb. 2nd, 2023

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I, too, will make a point of going to see it in person.

I'd like to thank our colleagues for their presentations. A lot of points have been raised. The key elements we're concerned about are social cohesion, the electoral quotient and demographic shifts. We need to ask ourselves several questions here to help shed light on your testimony.

I'd like to take this a little further, and I will start with Mr. Blaikie.

People have talked about an urban/rural dividing line. That's a reality in Quebec and even in Ontario. What would be the advantage of respecting the electoral quotient, among other things? You told us that your constituents had brought these issues to your attention.

I'd like you to provide a little more detail on what you're proposing.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you very much. I'm happy to provide an answer to that question.

In fact, I am going to quote briefly from the commission's own report, which said:

In general terms, the presenters who were in favour of a Saskatoon Centre riding argued that it would recognize a community of interest that is, to some extent, particular to this central urban area. As indicated in the Proposal, these interests include unique concerns relating to infrastructure for transportation, the development of the downtown core, issues faced by at-risk populations and distinct issues faced by Indigenous people, whose population in Saskatoon is concentrated in the neighbourhoods inside Circle Drive.

That's from the commission itself, which also recognized that there are unique challenges faced in the urban core, including challenges with respect to transit, housing, homelessness and things of that nature, which are similar to the challenges for folks who are living in the core.

I come from Winnipeg. Two rivers run through the city, so I'm very familiar with how rivers can be important boundaries—political boundaries and psychological boundaries—and can help organize behaviour. I also know that sometimes, when you're talking about the nature of political representation, although folks don't think of themselves necessarily as having a community of interest because of a divide, like a river, the kinds of issues they face are nevertheless very similar. Therefore, the work that a political representative would do would have more coherence straddling that divide, because they would be speaking to similar issues, even if folks perceived them in a slightly different way.

Again, this is part of the balancing act that commissions have to do. Sometimes those things, like a river, are going to be a really significant boundary, and other times, some of those other concerns are going to weigh into that.

I appreciate the difficult work the commission has to do. Clearly, its members didn't initially think that the river was such an important boundary that it couldn't be crossed. It was their proposal, after all, to have a Saskatoon centre riding.

I'm here today to speak on behalf of folks who simply think that the commission should stick to its original proposal for the reason I mentioned, which is that the needs are similar enough that the kinds of political work and representation an elected member would engage in would pair well.

That's what I'm here to say.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you very much.

I've heard other colleagues talk about historical element, which has an impact in terms of communities of interest, for example.

Mr. Steinley and that Mr. Scheer, it seems that you don't agree that the ridings should be butchered. You see a difference between the northern and southern parts of Regina. Could you tell us a bit more so that the commissions watching us are aware of everything?

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Yes, I'm a NOD for life. There is definitely a division in Regina between north and south. Those are the main groupings of neighbourhoods. Obviously there are subgroups within that, but there's a distinctive character in the north end versus in the south end. There's a friendly rivalry between sports leagues and between schools and things like that. There is definitely a distinction there.

In terms of the historical voting pattern—and this might relate a little to Saskatoon as well—in 2013, the electoral maps in Regina and Saskatoon were changed dramatically and became massively different. It went from blended urban-rural ridings into urban-only ridings. Many people had to discover that they were in a different riding altogether. There was a different name to it. Some of the communities that had historically been part of that were no longer part of that.

To have another round of massive changes just one cycle later, when there really hasn't been that justification in terms of demographic growth or shifting, doesn't make a lot of sense. It really seems as though every 10 years they're going to have these massive changes.

That's why I think it's important to look at the Saskatchewan situation as a bit of a continuation between the last time and this time. The maps that the commission has tabled contain more modest changes with regard to Saskatoon.

In Regina, we still have the challenge that we're outlining. I'll let Warren speak to that.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

In closing, I see that we obviously want to spark interest among voters and up voter turnout. In that case, why try to change some things from the past?

The same reasoning applies everywhere, in all ridings. If the criteria are being met, why change the ridings?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Ms. Gaudreau.

Ms. Blaney, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I thank the folks who are here today to present to us. We always learn a lot from this. As we go across the country, we certainly learn a lot more. I think we always have to appreciate the knowledge people have of their own regions. I appreciate that.

I'll come first to Mr. Blaikie and ask a few clarifying questions.

It sounds like the concern here—and I think we've heard this from other folks at the table—is that figuring out how to have a riding that really reflects the needs of the constituents is always a challenge, especially when you're looking at urban versus rural.

I represent a fairly large riding. I wouldn't say any of my communities is extensively huge. They don't have that huge urban sprawl, but there is a distinct nature to each of those communities.

In my region, for example, when folks talk about the riding being called North Island, my constituents in the real North Island are always very clear to indicate that where they are is the true north and that the other parts of the riding are not, in fact, the true north, so it's generous of them to include those parts in that title. I think we see that all the time, and we have to respect those voices and the intricacies.

I really appreciate Mr. Scheer's comments earlier about having an identity between rural and urban areas and wanting to keep those together so you can showcase that it is the true sense of your region.

It sounds like there are voices from people who feel they are not heard. When you are in a place where you don't have that representation, obviously you're going to speak out and want to have your voice heard. That's what I hear you doing today.

I wonder if you could talk a little about whose those voices are and what some of their concerns might be. Why is being part of an urban riding something that they feel is particularly important for them moving forward, in terms of their political and regional identity?

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Again, I'm not here to be the subject matter expert in respect to Saskatchewan but just to relay concerns we've been hearing. I don't know that a full stakeholder consultation list has been published by the commission to date in terms of what they heard from folks after their initial proposal was made. I understand that we're aware of over 20 people who made submissions in support of Saskatoon centre.

My understanding is that the feeling there really is that there are.... When you're talking about an urban core, there are particular kinds of challenges and struggles, and infrastructure is required in order to address those things that is simply not the kind of infrastructure or challenge that you would experience in rural communities.

People know each other. People who live on the outskirts of the city or just outside of the city travel into the city and things of that nature. What they're looking for in terms of improvements to the community around their home is going to be very different if they live in a community just outside the city rather than in the city core.

The gist of those representations is that people who live in an urban core want to be able to have representation that doesn't feel divided between having to represent very different communities of interest with very different infrastructure needs. They would rather have the opportunity, in a Saskatchewan context, to have an urban representative able to focus and specialize on the kinds of issues that you experience in an urban core. I think that's really the main thrust of what people are concerned about.

Without getting into the full history of it—some members around this table know it better than I do—that's not something that has largely been true, because of the way ridings have been created in Saskatchewan over some period of time.

Saskatoon's population has been growing, and I think folks feel that the city is at a point now where it doesn't make sense to deny Saskatoon a properly urban riding. It's maybe not going to cover all of the city, although there are proposals that would see Saskatoon divided into three ridings pretty neatly without extending very far into rural areas.

I appreciate that because of the historical fact that you've had urban-rural split ridings in Saskatchewan, creating three ridings for the city of Saskatoon would require a significant rejigging of the electoral map, which is why that happened in the commission's initial proposal. You can't do that without making some significant change.

The idea that a growing Saskatoon means that the time has come for there to be a properly urban riding is certainly the view we're hearing from a number of folks in Saskatoon who made representations to the commission.

While Mr. Redekopp may well be right that, in the initial round, there were only four people, I think he'll find, when more detail is published on the public consultation process that took place after the commission's initial proposal, that there were, in fact, substantially more people who submitted in support of a Saskatoon centre riding. That's certainly what we've been hearing.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you. Since I have about eight seconds, I will give that time back to the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Your generosity.... Thank you. We appreciate every second we can get.

You have up to five minutes, Mr. Redekopp.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to pick up on something that I'm sensing is a bit confusing. I want to clarify this.

Mr. Blaikie, in your initial opening remarks, you talked about blended rural-urban ridings. There's been some talk back and forth about that. I want to make sure that everybody understands that in 2012, when the commission made its changes, at that point, the ridings were blended rural-urban ridings. In fact, the riding I represent now, which was represented by my colleague sitting right beside me, included a whole swath of rural areas beside it.

Part of the big change that happened—and it was first contested in the 2015 election—was having only urban ridings in Saskatoon. There were three urban ridings. One of the ridings has a tiny bit of rural. It's about 5%. It's a little piece. For the most part, though, there are three purely urban ridings. That happened in the last go-around of this. Of course, the NDP won the Saskatoon West seat. Voters changed their mind four years later.

My question is this: Are you aware of that? Are you aware that there are no blended rural-urban ridings in Saskatoon today?

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

As I say, I'm not a Saskatchewan subject matter expert, but I was aware of that. I enjoyed my time sitting around a caucus table with Sheri Benson. I thought she did an excellent job at representing folks there. Of course, I respect the choices that voters make.

What we're talking about today is going one further and trying to talk about the kinds of issues that present in an urban core, and then trying to create representation around that.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

One thing I want to mention is that the proposal for Saskatoon centre would create a fourth riding in Saskatoon called Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, which would be a blended rural-urban riding. We would go from having three urban-only ridings to having three urban ridings plus one blended riding, which is going in the opposite direction of what you're saying.

I wanted to clarify that, because there's a little inconsistency there.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

That's why you'll find we've submitted our own proposal for how the lines might be drawn in Saskatoon to create three properly urban seats in Saskatoon, or to maintain three properly urban seats, while having a Saskatoon centre riding.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

That would have been very helpful during the consultation process.

I want to switch to Mr. Scheer. I'm a little confused. You talked about Ituna. I know you got cut off, but I was confused about what you were talking about.

Could you pick that up and enlighten us?

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Yes. Thanks very much for giving me the opportunity to do that.

The commission heard from several community leaders in the communities of Wynyard and Ituna. In the original proposal that people were reacting to during that process, the proposal was to move most of the rural part of Regina—Qu'Appelle into Yorkton—Melville. The commissioners heard from reeves, RM councillors and other community leaders that their trading pattern and their traffic pattern—where they work and where they put their kids into activities—were all north-south into Regina and into Fort Qu’Appelle. The commission has put most of the rural part back into Regina—Qu'Appelle, but it has left Wynyard and Ituna, and the areas around them, in Yorkton—Melville.

What I'm here today to highlight is that this is not reflective of what the commissioners would have heard. They would have heard from people from those communities telling them that they feel more aligned with Regina or Fort Qu’Appelle, depending on whether they're talking about Ituna or Wynyard. The reality on the ground is that those are the communities of interest.

Going back to the historical pattern, Kelliher and Ituna are just down the highway. They've been in the same riding, I think, since the sixties. For Wynyard and Raymore, it's the same thing. Those are communities that are very closely linked.

While this proposal has put most of the rural back, I think it fell short of where the line needs to be.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

I think we have about 40 or 50 seconds left.

Have you spoken with your colleagues about that change? I guess it would be Cathay Wagantall in Yorkton—Melville.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Yes, I have.

It has a very minimal impact on Yorkton—Melville. If they put those communities back into Regina—Qu'Appelle, there would be about 2,700 electors from Yorkton—Melville into Regina—Qu'Appelle, out of 76,000. It's a minor change. I don't think it would upset the balance.

Again, we have to keep in mind that the commission has given itself massive latitude as it relates to northern Saskatchewan, in terms of veering from the quotient. We're talking.... I think it's well within the acceptable...it certainly keeps the difference between Yorkton—Melville and Regina—Qu'Appelle well below the 25% threshold that's in the act.

I can't stress enough the historical pattern in terms of the urban part of Regina, which Warren and I were also talking about. That community of North Central has been in Regina—Qu'Appelle for decades. To split it up into two different ridings....

Warren reminded me that his riding is called Regina—Lewvan for a reason. The Lewvan is such a major geographic divider in our city.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Ms. Sahota, you have up to five minutes.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

You know, you make a good point. Constituents should be able to identify themselves in their ridings. The name should make sense to the riding. We heard that previously from many members. We also heard arguments, even in the Nova Scotia presentation, regarding rural representation versus urban representation and members having the ability to focus their advocacy here in Parliament regarding their ridings. I can understand that rural communities may have not just one or two things that may be different but many, many things. Infrastructure and so many things could be different.

Today we also heard arguments from Mr. Scheer around big homes versus small homes. I'm not sure where we draw the line. Should we have diverse communities where MPs are also able to then maybe better understand the difficulties that low-income households may have versus wealthier households, or that rural people and urban people may have? I guess I have a larger question here as to what this committee's role would be. I know that the commission in large part really focused in on population, and that created a lot of these issues for many of us, but when I hear things like big homes versus small homes, I don't know whether that's something we should be looking at.

Mr. Scheer, I'll allow you to clarify first and then anyone else who'd like to comment.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Those are great points. Of course, when you're creating electoral boundaries you need to have some kind of guidelines to determine where to draw a line. Geographic features are obvious, and sometimes municipal boundaries, but when you're within a city it's a bit trickier: Why should this part of Regina be with that part of Regina?

Regina—Qu'Appelle under both proposals has a great deal of diversity in terms of income levels, quality of housing and all kinds of things like that. What I was trying to say by talking about moving from one neighbourhood to the other was the cohesion within a community itself. As we all know, in the communities we represent.... Yes, there's Regina, but then there's north of Dewdney, and then within that there's Coronation Park and Argyle Park. Even within that sometimes you can have little clusters or areas that maybe were developed around the same time when people moved in.

North Central is very distinct. It is very easily identifiable. It has...not natural boundaries but roads that act as boundaries. Lewvan is the biggest one. The train tracks that run south are the southern boundary. There are only a few places where you can cross from the north into the south, because of the way the train tracks cut across the city.

My point is not that all one type of house should be in one riding and all in another. It's just that in that particular area, if you're walking west, say, along 3rd Avenue, it's all one neighbourhood. Under the current map, at one point you'd be crossing from Regina—Qu'Appelle into Regina—Lewvan, and there's no natural reason or no obvious reason on the ground for that to be the case, whereas Lewvan is very clearly the separator. It's just a distinct neighbourhood on either side of the Lewvan. You would know that you're obviously moving from one part of Regina to another. There's just different social cohesion and community cohesion on either side of that.

That's what I was basing my proposal on.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Are there any other comments?

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

I'd be happy to offer some comments.

When it comes to Regina, I would also mention that the city wards don't cross either. In Regina—Lewvan right now, going straight down to Lewvan, five MLAs represent that area, and none of those provincial boundaries cross either. It's the same for the city councillors. Those areas don't cross the Lewvan either.

So it kind of falls in line and makes sense that way as well. That's why we're talking about it as such a distinct barrier for the city of Regina.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

I would simply add this. I respect that we're talking about Saskatoon and about Saskatchewan, but one thing the Manitoba boundaries commission recognized in some alterations to Winnipeg Centre.... They're moving that riding to go north of the CPR tracks, which is a pretty significant divider within the city of Winnipeg. They're doing that because they recognize that Point Douglas is a core area, downtown Winnipeg, and that the core of city centres tend to have issues in common and face similar challenges.

One of the value-adds that the procedure and House affairs committee can offer this process.... I mean, the boundary commissions very rightly start from population. It's a clear metric. It's something you can really kind of carve up, but here we can add our thoughts about the nature of political representation, how to advocate for certain kinds of issues, and how that cashes out in this place. When you have the kind of core area that Saskatoon centre could be as a riding, that's something for this committee to reflect on in terms of the nature of political representation and how to make that a more cohesive or coherent job for the person chosen by voters to represent them in this place.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Ms. Gaudreau, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.