Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 2nd, 2023

[Rob Stewart]

“No” is my answer.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Mr. Morrison said that foreign election interference is a serious matter and that partial intelligence has to be taken seriously and looked at carefully. I find it incredible that nothing was passed on to the RCMP or the commissioner of Canada elections, notwithstanding the fact that based on the Rosenberg report, it's evident that there was information the panel had about foreign interference.

At any time, did the panel consult with or report to the Prime Minister, the PMO, any minister or any minister's office?

[Rob Stewart]

No.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Did the panel alert any candidates in the 2021 election that they may be a target or a victim of foreign interference?

[Rob Stewart]

We did not, as such. There were regular briefings of political parties and representatives of political parties by officials, but not by the panel.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

The cabinet directive provides, barring national security considerations, that candidates who are a target of foreign interference be informed. Why didn't that happen when the rapid response mechanism provided and shared information with the panel about disinformation on Chinese-language social media platforms that was targeted against Conservative candidates in the Lower Mainland, including former member of Parliament Kenny Chiu?

In the face of that information, why weren't Kenny Chiu and those candidates informed, having regard for cabinet protocol?

[Rob Stewart]

Your question embeds many assumptions, sir.

To go back to your prior question, the panel was briefed regularly by the RCMP and intelligence agency. It wasn't really in the ambit of the panel to refer things to the RCMP.

Secondly, based on what the panel was being informed of, the panel did not come to the conclusion that there was a level of foreign interference that would impact the integrity of the election. Having said that, on a regular basis, as part of the process, political parties were briefed about—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Let me be clear. Under the cabinet protocol, it's not about the overall integrity of the election. That's under section 6 of the protocol, which is related to informing the public.

I'm talking about the section related to informing candidates, which is a different section.

[Rob Stewart]

I am saying, sir, that parties are briefed regularly by officials about what is going on. To the point about what you have assumed to be the case, that was not being told to the political parties by officials.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Are you aware that the Conservative Party of Canada alerted the SITE task force that there was suspected foreign interference by Beijing targeted at Conservative candidates?

Did the SITE task force relay that information to the panel?

[Rob Stewart]

I'm aware that there was a meeting after the election with representatives of the Conservative Party on that day.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

No. During the election campaign, the Conservative Party of Canada informed the SITE task force about interference that was suspected by Beijing, targeted at Conservative candidates.

Was that information passed on to the panel? Answer yes or no.

[Rob Stewart]

The panel was briefed by intelligence agencies and the RCMP on the best information they had available.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Was that information passed on to the panel? Answer yes or no.

Were you aware? Was the panel aware that the Conservative Party had provided concerns about interference targeted at Conservative candidates?

Answer yes or no.

[Rob Stewart]

The panel was briefed about activities that were happening in ridings that were difficult to attribute to foreign interference at the time, and that were potentially of interest. It did not rise to the level of the panel adjudicating it as a matter of foreign interference in the election of a riding or at a national level.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Well, it's really not comforting to think that, in the face of what we know with respect to types of disinformation that was being circulated, the panel didn't even see fit to inform any of the candidates. What did the panel do with that information? You said, “It doesn't meet some threshold; therefore, we're not going to inform the public and we're not going to inform the candidates. We're going to keep everyone in the dark.” That's completely unacceptable.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I will ask Mr. Morrison or Mr. Stewart to answer, please.

[David Morrison]

Can I just say, through the Chair, that in the online space, one needs to be certain that the disinformation circulating comes from abroad and that it is sponsored by a state. That's what would constitute foreign interference, as opposed to just the rough-and-tumble of an electoral campaign.

We were aware of what I think the rapid response mechanism called activity, or unusual activity, but we were advised by the rapid response mechanism that it was not possible—and they read everything in Chinese—to attribute that necessarily to non-Canadian sources, non-Canadian citizen sources or state-sponsored sources.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Mr. Turnbull, you have up to six minutes.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

To both witnesses, thank you for being here today and for the incredible expertise you provide on these matters. I greatly respect your work and your service.

Maybe, Mr. Morrison, you could give us.... I feel that with the last line of questioning there seems to be a misunderstanding among my colleagues around the table as to what the protocol is and how the protocol and the panel function and work. Could you give a very brief overview of that, Mr. Morrison?

[David Morrison]

Sure. The panel exists, by design, only during the caretaker period. The relevant agencies and ministers are live to the possibilities of foreign interference before, during and after the writ period. However, during the writ period, the caretaker period, where parties are out campaigning, the panel functions as a mechanism of last resort in case something rises to the level that would threaten the integrity of the electoral process at either a national or an individual riding level.

The experts' information comes to the panel via the SITE task force. As I said in my opening remarks, that involved, during the time of the election after a number of preparatory meetings—I believe there were four meetings before the election and six meetings during the election—the SITE task force providing daily updates as to what it was seeing or what it was not seeing. We had weekly meetings to ensure we had a shared understanding of what the SITE task force was reporting to us. Then we would deliberate on what we had learned.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you. That's a great overview.

Just to be clear, that panel and protocol were set up in 2019. Prior to that, was there any mechanism like this that would operate to identify and notify the public of a potential threat during an election?

[David Morrison]

There was not—not that I'm aware of.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you.

As both of you were members of the 2021 panel, my understanding is you were briefed by security officials at every meeting during the election. Is that correct?

[David Morrison]

Yes.