Evidence of meeting #25 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was banks.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Shawn Pegg  Manager, Policy and Research, Canadian Association of Food Banks
Wayne Hellquist  Chief Executive Officer, Regina and District Food Bank, Canadian Association of Food Banks
Michael Buda  Acting Deputy Director, Policy, Federation of Canadian Municipalities
Michel Frojmovic  Consultant, Federation of Canadian Municipalities
Monica Townson  Research Associate, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives, As an Individual
Chris Sarlo  Professor, Department of Economics, Nipissing University, As an Individual

10:50 a.m.

Bloc

The Vice-Chair Bloc Yves Lessard

Mr. Sarlo, would you like to answer that question as well?

10:50 a.m.

Prof. Chris Sarlo

Thank you.

First of all, I'm on record as having real difficulties with the LICO measure. I don't regard that as a very useful technical tool for measurement. I think that if we're interested in a genuinely relative measure, we ought to use something like 50% or 60% of median after-tax income or some of the social exclusion measures that have been used in Great Britain. I think those are much preferable to LICO. My understanding is that one reason the market basket measure was developed was in response to provincial dissatisfaction with the LICO.

I'm also on record, for at least 10 years, as advocating that we do use two measures, a relative and an absolute. I happen to feel that absolute captures what most people understand in terms of poverty. If we listen again to Ed Broadbent's comments when he spoke passionately in Parliament about child poverty, he wasn't talking about social exclusion. He wasn't talking about inequality. He was talking about hunger and ill-housed and ill-clothed and so on--terms that you can get at only if you use an absolute measure.

So I think that's widespread. I think people understand an absolute conception of poverty when they think of that term, so I would prefer to use that in linking poverty to the national issue that we're talking about, but continue to measure both absolute and relative, so that we have the information before us.

10:50 a.m.

Bloc

The Vice-Chair Bloc Yves Lessard

We'll complete our round with Mr. Martin, from the NDP.

10:55 a.m.

NDP

Tony Martin NDP Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Thank you very much.

I wanted to, first of all, say to Mr. Lake that I understand some of what he's been putting on the table here the last couple of days. I don't think anybody out there who is living in poverty often sees himself as being poor, but as Mr. Cuzner said on Tuesday, we do know somebody down the road who's dirt poor. So it's fairly relative.

I know that in my own case, growing up in a working-class family with seven kids and no benefit package, I didn't realize I was having any difficulties until into my teen years, when my folks actually did get a benefit package, and I began to be able to get my teeth fixed. The cheapest option for us as a family was to just get them pulled, and after my brother had lost all his, and I was on the same track, I realized that I needed to do something different. As a teenager, there's nothing worse, in terms of social exclusion, than bad teeth.

I just wanted to go back to this idea of what we should include, what we should measure. We've heard this morning, on a number of occasions, about the issue of the basic necessities. The question I have is, what are the basic necessities?

Maybe, Monica, to give you a chance to respond to the previous question, which was the social inclusion question, we'll start with you.

10:55 a.m.

Research Associate, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives, As an Individual

Monica Townson

Social inclusion or social exclusion definitely should be measured.

You may be familiar with the United Nations definition of poverty, which is based on what they call a human rights definition, and it talks about being poor as being excluded from society, that social inclusion is definitely an issue. So we should be measuring social exclusion and not simply focusing on income or basic necessities.

Most of the jurisdictions in Europe that have developed comprehensive anti-poverty strategies do measure social exclusion. Ireland does, the U.K. does, and other European countries do.

The Irish situation, which you may be familiar with, has a whole list that says these are things people should be entitled to. Talking about basic necessities, we may find some of these interesting. They are a warm home, a warm coat, shoes, a roast once a week—things like that—the ability to invite friends over once a week, be able to go to a movie once a week. We might not consider these basic necessities, but what it says is, I think, if people are lacking more than two of those, then they should be considered to be socially excluded.

In other words, you look at some of the things that are common in your particular culture, and you say people should be able to have what other people have within reason. So social exclusion definitely should be measured, and I think we should take that into account along with income. It shouldn't just be deprivation.

There were years when we would have said having an outside toilet was fine, and then having an inside toilet became a necessity. I read somewhere recently that having a telephone is considered a basic necessity now, whereas it might not have been 50 years ago, and the suggestion was made in this article that eventually having connection to the Internet may be considered a basic necessity.

So this changes over time, depending on the society you live in, but we need to be giving thought to that, as the jurisdictions that are having success in anti-poverty strategies have done. They mostly have a combination of those basic necessities or social exclusion measures along with some kind of income measure too.

10:55 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Regina and District Food Bank, Canadian Association of Food Banks

Wayne Hellquist

One of the key things that would be very helpful here is to ask poor people what they think should be included in the list.

I can tell you for sure that social exclusion or inclusion would be high on their list of items that should be measured. That's the real face of hunger. That's where it hits people hardest. That's where it keeps their kids out of activities, that differentiates them from others who don't live in poverty.

So I think if we're serious about measuring it, it isn't just about the metrics, it isn't just about income; it really is about quality of life, and those things become vitally important to individuals and families, where they live and when they live. So by all means, I think we need to be much more broad-based in terms of measures than simply some of those very simple metrics or some of those income levels. Let's look at what the face of poverty is like in our country; let's figure out what that looks like. Let's measure those things to improve the lot of life of people who every day face this issue individually and with their families.

11 a.m.

Bloc

The Vice-Chair Bloc Yves Lessard

I definitely can't allow any further questions.

At the end of this meeting, I want to thank you for so generously agreeing to make your contribution today. We can assure you that it will be an invaluable contribution to our work. Once again, thank you.

I also thank my colleagues who, in the past two meetings, have made my task easier in view of the fact that, as first Vice-Chair, I was replacing the Chairman in his absence.

I therefore thank you for respecting the allotted time. I wish you a good day. The meeting is adjourned.