Human Resources Committee on Oct. 28th, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

Thank you very much.

Monsieur Lessard.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister, I'd like to thank you and the officials who are with you today for appearing this morning.

Minister, I'd like to continue in the same vein as my colleague. What consequences would there be for a province, were it to refuse to sign on to this?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

What do you mean?

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Will there be consequences for a province if it refuses to sign on to Bill C-31?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

My hope is that all the provinces and territories will sign on.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

I don't know whether all the provinces will sign on, but there are already quite a few that do this.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

There are people in every province that support this bill.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

That wasn't my question. Did you consider whether there would be consequences for the provinces?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Every province and territory would have the choice of signing on or not. However, there would be no direct consequences imposed by the government.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Minister, I'm sure you're familiar with section 78 of the Corrections and Conditional Release Act, which provides that 30% of an inmate's income can be withheld to cover certain prison costs. Is that provision enforced? How many people are currently affected?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

I don't have exact figures, but I believe the Commissioner of Corrections has already answered that question.

In fact, the maximum is $25 per week.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

So, 30% of a person's income—

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

—up to a maximum of $25 per week.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

But the act does say 30%, does it not?

[Jacques Paquette, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Income Security and Social Development Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development]

I'd like to repeat what the commissioner explained, because I think it's very helpful. To begin with, money can only be withheld under very specific conditions. Furthermore, the commissioner stated that he only controls accounts inside the institutions. Consequently, he is not aware of money deposited outside institutions. That's why section 78 did not meet the desired goals.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

But you understand what I'm getting at. We support the aim of this bill. Have you looked at the possibility I raised with the commissioner? He said this was a decision made by the political powers that be. He suggested an amendment to section 78 of the Corrections and Conditional Release Act. Have you considered that option?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

We looked at different ways of resolving the issue, but passing Bill C-31 is still the best option because it's easier, more comprehensive and more direct. It's the best approach.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

So, you haven't considered that. One of the witnesses we heard from proposed that the commissioner be allowed to withhold more than the 30% or $25. According to him, it would simply be a matter of amending section 78 of the Corrections and Conditional Release Act. That seems to be a potential avenue.

[Jacques Paquette]

To answer your question, yes, we did look at that option with Correctional Service officials. We concluded that, even if it were amended, section 78 would not meet the goals laid out in this bill, particularly since, as Correctional Service officials explained, they only have access to accounts inside the institutions. Monies deposited outside the institutions are not subject to section 78. That section is very limited in terms, not only of its wording, but also, its application to various funds and income. That's why we concluded that this bill was the only option, if we wanted to achieve these goals. Even if it were amended, section 78 would not allow us to do that.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

The commissioner didn't have certain information. For example, how many inmates with children receive Old Age Security benefits. Do you have those statistics?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

We estimate that there are 400 inmates in federal prisons and 600 in provincial institutions aged 65 and over. How many children aged 18 or under do they have? We don't know and have no way of determining that.

It's important to recognize that the purpose of the Old Age Security Program is to support, not children, but seniors. The Old Age Security Program is intended to support seniors and provide them with an immediate and minimum standard of living.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Bill C-31 already contains measures that consider dependents. One solution is to collect the information when the person is incarcerated. If you don't receive the information in time and the pension is paid for more than a month, do inmates or their spouses have to repay it?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

I don't really understand your question.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

I believe Mr. Paquette understood me. When there is an overpayment—

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

All the rules under the Old Age Security Program will be followed. If there's an overpayment or underpayment, that will be dealt with on a timely basis.