Human Resources Committee on Nov. 25th, 2010

[Sandra Scarth]

I think it would be very easy for the federal government to support a national data collection system. Currently, the data is collected occasionally by the provinces and territories who work with HRSDC. HRSDC, Human Resources and Skills Development Canada, then publishes the data, but it's very late and is only one time.

There needs to be some kind of better system, and one way of starting it—a simple way of starting it—would be to call a small meeting of people from StatsCan, from provincial directors of child welfare, adoption coordinators, other people who collect justice statistics, and so on, and pull them together and ask how we could collect this data. It's a feasibility study.

This was done a number of years ago for child abuse statistics when there weren't any. It was a child welfare league, and I was there at the time. We pulled together a small group like this. It cost maybe $15,000, $20,000, and the group decided how to collect it. We now have national statistics on child abuse. This could be done for children in care and adoption as well. A feasibility study would be a start.

[Josée Beaudin, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Thank you very much.

I'd like to put a question to some of you who have adopted a child.

In Quebec, adoptive parents are considered to be the biological parents and are covered under the same provisions in terms of employment insurance, services and parental leave. Furthermore, Quebec has an excellent post-adoption follow-up process. Organizations like CLSCs and youth centres, in particular, offer support and follow-up services. I would like to know what post-adoption follow-up was offered to you and, if it wasn't comprehensive enough, what you would like in the way of services.

In Quebec, a refundable tax credit is available to adoptive parents. Is it refundable in your case? I don't think so. In any case, please tell me more about the kind of post-adoption follow-up that you would like to receive.

[Lee-Ann Sleegers, Secretary, Canadian Coalition of Adoptive Families]

For the post-adoption supports, I can really only speak for Ontario. A lot of the time, it depends on your agency. A lot of your smaller agencies don't have post-adoption support groups. We have the larger agencies, because the confidentiality and what have you aren't exactly welcoming to families from other jurisdictions, from other agencies. Once you go to court and get the document that says the child is yours, the social workers are gone. They don't want to hear from you. Unless something goes horribly wrong, they're gone.

The support is really friends, other people who have been there. That's in a public scenario. In a private scenario, there is really nothing that I'm aware of. I have friends who have done it. I have family who have done the private route, and once you sign the documents, there is nothing. If something does develop, you then hope you can connect with somebody who has gone public and can access some of those supports in terms of groups and put friends in touch with friends.

That's where the disparity is. There is no follow-up once you sign those documents in court.

[Laura Eggertson]

It depends on your agency. In many jurisdictions, in the larger agencies, they may have some small budget that they cobble together to give parents some support. I got very good post-adoption support from the Ottawa Children's Aid Society, but it is entirely up to the agencies. In most provinces there is no provincial budget for post-adoption support, and Quebec is a very big exception to that, which we would like to see happening in other places.

[Carol van der Veer]

Just a quick personal note about the post-adoption support. It was two years before PALS was established, and it was through the Durham Children's Aid Society. It's interesting. Two or three staff were really keen to have the support group, because you could help each other, rather than constantly calling your social worker. When it was started, the other 25 staff were not keen. And we weren't picking the agency apart. It was just a room we were using, because it was free, because there isn't any funding. If there were drinks or snacks, it was because we brought them. They will sometimes fund children's programs.

The biggest thing is that Jessica has a support group. She learned maybe three years ago that she wasn't one of two or three children in Newcastle who was adopted. There were 35 adoptive children there. She was in heaven. She found her universe. She found her planet. So it's been a huge help for us, this post-adoption support.

Would you like to say something?

[Jessica van der Veer]

With the support group, we go there once a month. All the parents will sit in there, and then my adoption worker, Robert, who doesn't like the meetings, will take all the kids and we'll make muffins or we'll do crafts, and we'll all be supporting something. This month was Adoption Awareness Month, and we made a poster; we watched movies. It's great because all the kids there were adopted, so it's not just like, “Do I talk about it? Do I not?” I can talk about it and nobody cares.

Thanks.

[Sandra Scarth]

I'd like to respond very briefly. Two years ago the Adoption Council did get some funding from Human Resources Development Canada and did spend two years trying to set up adoption groups across the country, but the funding ended, so we were not able to do it anymore. There is a possibility of that kind of funding being available, to help set up those self-help groups, because that is one of the best ways to support families.

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

Thank you very much.

We'll now go to Mr. Martin.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you very much for coming this morning. I would suggest--contrary to perhaps what the chair has suggested--that adoption fits into a wider context that needs to be addressed if we're going to fix some of the challenges that the system faces and that people face. And certainly changes to EI, as you suggested, would give you more time; that would be a good start.

The whole question of poverty is top of mind for me these days because we just tabled a report here that is actually quite exceptional in its scope and breadth and in the recommendations it made. I think it would go a long way to helping adoptive families look after their children, particularly those who are challenged with things like FASD.

We just had a report this morning by Campaign 2000 that suggests that one in ten children lives in poverty in Canada, and in fact one in four if you're aboriginal. We've been talking about this for quite some time now, but we really haven't got our heads around what we might do. Poverty is also a determinant of health. If you live in poverty, chances are you won't be well and chances are you won't be able to get the resources you need outside of the system. And even in the system it's difficult, particularly for such diseases as FASD.

Maybe you could talk to us a bit this morning about what you think we might be able to do on that front of making sure we're supporting families in a way that allows them to be healthy and be that forever family they want to be. Oftentimes it falls apart because of money, resources, finances, and that kind of thing.

[Laura Eggertson]

I can speak to that if you'd like, Mr. Martin.

We believe that lack of permanency for children in care is a public health issue. I co-authored an editorial about that in the Canadian Medical Association Journal. We have the stats to prove it, because we know that children who age out of the system end up homeless, end up on the streets, end up in the justice system. On every measure of determinants of health, they rank at or near the bottom.

We believe there are creative ways for the federal government to act in areas of its own jurisdiction. One of them would be to look at this as a public health issue and to put strategies in place to support finding homes for the children who are in care. It's not going to solve all the problems, but when the child then maybe still gets into trouble, as biological children do, that kid will have a family standing with them. If that child gets into drug and alcohol issues, that child will have a family advocating for them.

The biggest thing we can do for at least that population of people is find them permanent families, so that they will stand with them, advocate for them, and help them, the same way you help your biological children. Most of us know, as parents, our kids' needs do not end at age 16 or 18.

That's what we can do. That's what the federal government can do. It's not only a matter of EI. There are many broader strategies that this committee could recommend and look at, in federal supports in areas of your own jurisdiction that you could do. We have a list of recommendations. You're hearing some of them today. We've submitted a brief with others.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Okay.

Out of my office, in some of the work that we've done over the years to try to support children as they move through the system, we find, as has been suggested here this morning, that the money doesn't follow the child. I attend the big banquet every year in the Soo. They bring foster families in, and those foster families...even though they struggle, at least they're supported. They're supplied with money and training and opportunities to get together and so on. But once the child is adopted, by either the foster family or somebody else, there's no more support. Adoptive parents often come and say, “Give us some training. Give us some access to the same supports the foster parents have.” That would be a start. That would be a beginning.

Maybe somebody might want to talk about recommendations there.

[Rev. Kimberly Sabourin]

Well, I want us to consider where the money is being spent. It's being spent in keeping children in foster care and not in the prospective adoptive family. If we want permanency for Canada's children, it's going to cost us something. So we have to look at the money that we are pouring into our foster care system, which is doing the best it can, but then we have to see where can the money follow the child once it has been placed, with all the issues they are going to face. We have to really take a hard look at where our money is being spent.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

The other reality that I find rather sad is there are also family members who would love to adopt or even take a child into foster care, a grandparent perhaps, but there are roadblocks there too, because the money doesn't follow them either. If a child is moved into a family member's home, or a grandparent's home, again it's usually followed by some pretty difficult financial challenges because the money doesn't follow.

[Sandra Scarth]

There are small amounts of money through social welfare for grandparents who are grandparenting children, but it's very, very small. It's extremely low. It doesn't nearly cover the cost of a child. Very often, when these grandparents take in their children, if they haven't come through the child welfare system, they don't even have access to that. This is a huge issue. There are hundreds and thousands of children being raised by grandparents in this country with very little support, and they do fall into poverty. This is a whole area that does need addressing as well.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

One more, if I could.

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

You have just under a minute.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Okay.

At a gathering a couple of weeks ago, Cindy Blackstock spoke and said that in Canada today there are more aboriginal children in care than there ever were in the residential schools, and she tied it to neglect. Neglect is again because of poverty. Living in poverty, neglect happens. So kids get taken and put into foster care.

You mentioned aboriginal children and adoption being a particular challenge. Maybe you could—

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

Very, very briefly.

[Laura Eggertson]

You probably need a whole other session on this, and I would suggest—

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

We are going to have one, I think.

[Laura Eggertson]

—that you get Cindy here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

We are; we're going to have one.

[Laura Eggertson]

I hope you will speak to Cindy. What we really hope you will also do is hear from youth themselves who have been in care, aboriginal youth and non-aboriginal youth—

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

We want to do that, yes.

[Laura Eggertson]

—and talk to them about it. It's a huge issue.

Supports to birth families are very important to keep those kids from coming into care. But I think we have to be realistic and look at the fact that the challenges that many of the families face are such that the kids may have to come into care for a time, and that we may need to look for more families. You should talk to some of the aboriginal and non-aboriginal child welfare agencies about this, I think.