Evidence of meeting #48 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was going.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

March 8th, 2011 / 11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair (Ms. Candice Hoeppner (Portage—Lisgar, CPC)) Conservative Candice Bergen

I'd like to call to order meeting number 48 of the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

Pursuant to the orders of the day, we will continue to look at Bill C-304, An Act to ensure secure, adequate, accessible and affordable housing for Canadians. The last time that we met on this particular bill, we were going through the bill clause by clause, giving it clause-by-clause consideration. We were looking at an amendment. The amendment was a Bloc amendment, and we were actually in the middle of discussions surrounding the amendment.

Now I'm just going to check with Mr. Komarnicki. When we adjourned the last meeting, you were still speaking. Do you wish to continue to speak, or had you completed your thoughts?

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

I don't remember and I don't know and I'm not sure, but I can certainly speak.

I think I'd prefer to pass to the next speaker, and if I have something further to say, I'll ask my name be put on the list.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

The last two speakers actually right now were Mr. Vellacott and then Mr. Casson.

I don't see Mr. Vellacott here....

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

There's no one else here, so I suppose I should finish what I was saying. I will start where I left off.

I'll begin at the beginning.

I obviously indicated my concerns with the amendment.

An attempt was made by this committee to previously amend the bill in a way that would allow Mr. Lessard and the Bloc party to have the ability for Quebec to opt out but still receive the benefits and the funding. That wasn't acceptable; it wasn't going to work. The Speaker said so, and this amendment is an attempt to get around that somehow. I think it will be challenged by the Speaker. If it wasn't a means to get around that, then Mr. Lessard would not be happy with the bill.

It says that “Quebec may, as a party to the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights...”. My understanding is that it's factually and legally incorrect, in that parties to international conventions are either provinces or territories, and they aren't referred to as parties. That's one of the facts relating to the amendment that I take issue with.

The other is that in this case it allows Quebec to “participate in the benefits of the act with respect to its own choices, its own programs, and its own approach related to housing on its territory”, which again hardly makes it a national housing strategy.

If you're going to have a national housing strategy, then everybody has to abide by it. I think in principle we don't need one because we already have federal, provincial, territorial first ministers' meetings. They're already looking at precisely the things that we're talking about here.

The Speaker says that the bill itself does not involve any commitment of money, so what we're talking about is a strategy that is simply some overarching principles that are presently being adhered to. I think that if we make a special provision for Quebec, it would be strange in a national housing policy that we would have specific reference to one province and give any special benefits or privileges or special conditions that we're not prepared to give to all provinces.

If the drafters of this bill were going to be fair and logical to all of Canada nationally, they would include all provinces and all territories. Why you might specifically include only Quebec would have to be out of appeasement to the Bloc and Mr. Lessard, who wants to preserve the province's right to do as it pleases and do its own thing and get funding at the same time--if there is funding.

From a position of principle, we would oppose this particular amendment.

Thank you.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

Thank you, Mr. Komarnicki.

Mr. Casson, did you want to add anything?

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Casson Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Madam Chair, I think that Ed pretty well summed up the issues that I had with this as well. There is also the fact that if you get an unpopular ruling according to what you particularly want to have, and then you keep bringing it back and bringing it back, that is not the way this committee, or any committee, should operate.

The chair and the Speaker ruled. I could get into the provincial jurisdiction, but I think Ed's handled that pretty well. That's my only comment.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

Thank you very much.

We are prepared to vote on this particular amendment.

11:10 a.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

I would like a recorded division, Madam Chair.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

It will be a recorded vote. Go ahead.

(Amendment agreed to: yeas 6; nays 4)

(Clause 4 agreed to)

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

Shall the bill as amended carry?

11:10 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

Shall the chair report the bill as amended to the House?

11:10 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Can we put a dissenting opinion there, Madam Chair?

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

Would you like to...? No, I'm sorry.

Shall the committee order a reprint of the bill as amended for the use of the House at report stage?

11:10 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

All right, we will order that reprint.

We are about 45 minutes ahead of schedule. What I could do is suspend for a nice five- or ten-minute break to get lunch. I should say two minutes, because usually that will extend to five minutes.

I will suspend for a couple of moments. We can grab lunch and then, if everyone is in agreement that we would proceed ahead of our planned schedule, we can go ahead and do that and not wait until noon.

We will suspend for a couple of minutes.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

We're ready to begin the second part of our meeting.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Monday, December 6, 2010, we are now looking at Bill C-481, An Act to amend the Canadian Human Rights Act and the Canada Labour Code (mandatory retirement age).

We are proceeding to clause-by-clause consideration.

(On clause 1)

I will at this time call the first clause.

Go ahead, Mr. Komarnicki.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

I have a point I want to raise with the committee. I'm going to ask essentially that this bill, Bill C-481, which deals with mandatory retirement, not proceed to clause-by-clause consideration today. I'm going to ask the committee to consider tabling it, because a number of witnesses, particularly FETCO, the Chamber of Commerce, and the pilots association, have raised what they have said are matters of considerable concern to them.

FETCO, particularly, when talking about pensions and benefits, said that they would like to have seen an amendment that would allow age differentiation with respect to what those who might continue working past a certain age would have to face with respect to how much they might pay to get into the pension, whether they would get moneys back at a different level, and whether they would be entitled to some of the benefit plans, whether it's medical, drugs, or whatever. They felt that this was an important exemption. They also mentioned that they would have liked to have seen an exemption that provided for more rigorous testing and so on as the age increases.

The pilots association has said that in the collective bargaining agreements that have been entered into, they've made some agreements between the pilots--the young and the old pilots--whereby all of them agreed that these would be the rules of the game. Essentially, younger pilots have to stay at the lower pay grade until they reach a certain age, and then they receive higher pay, more benefits, more privileges, and so on. They've indicated quite strongly that if you remove the mandatory retirement age altogether, what would happen is that the younger fellows who have been in the system and in the collective bargaining agreement would not be able to--

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

One moment, Mr. Komarnicki. We have a point of order.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Raymonde Folco Liberal Laval—Les Îles, QC

Although I appreciate what my colleague is trying to do, at the same time, he is bringing forth arguments that we heard from some witnesses and that we discussed fully in other meetings. I would ask you, as chair, to ask Mr. Komarnicki to finish his presentation without going through these arguments.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

Thank you for that intervention.

Mr. Komarnicki, if you are putting forward a motion to table this, it isn't debatable. I think what we would need to do is just--

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

I have to get with it.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

Yes, please, quickly, because we actually can't debate that motion. We have to vote on it.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

I should have given the reason I will be putting forward the motion to table the bill. It's because if we want to, as a committee, do our due diligence and consider potential amendments to this bill, I am told by the people I talk to that since it's a private member's bill, it's likely to be out of the scope of the bill, so we aren't able to do that. Plus, we don't know for sure what kind of amendment it should be to accommodate these people. They raised some legitimate points that we need to consider. Plus, from a government point of view, if we're going to expand the nature of the private member's bill, it has to go through the proper channels and processes to get that consent, whether it be cabinet or otherwise.

I'm saying that at this stage we are not doing our job if we simply proceed with what we have before us without considering what the witnesses have said. They raised some legitimate issues, so I move that we table this bill until those issues can be sorted out or ironed out to the satisfaction of all the parties who are prepared to support the bill, me included.

Now that I've moved a motion, am I allowed to speak to it?