Human Resources Committee on Dec. 1st, 2011

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Mr. Pineau, when the Canadian Chamber did their report, they recommended that Natural Resources Canada establish and fund a national round table on the value chain in the Canadian forestry industry. Do you have any comments on that?

[John Pineau]

I think Natural Resources Canada, in general, is doing some really good work, particularly in the research area with FPInnovations and the Canadian Wood Fibre Centre.

I'm really pleased to see what's happening with looking at new ways of using use wood, and at turning our mills eventually, and looking at how we do everything in the value chain from harvesting right through to the product, by looking less at traditional milling and more at a biorefinery capacity. So you might have traditional products like pulp and paper, lumber, and those sorts of things, but you'd also have the bioenergy value added. Nanotechnology research is showing some promise. I'm really pleased with what the federal government is doing, and I think, if anything, it should keep going on and keep expanding that.

I'd like to see more from the Canadian Council of Forest Ministers. That's a body that's has been a little quiet, but I think there's a lot of potential there. I'd like to see more activity and more coordination.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you, Ms. Crowder. Your time is done.

We'll now move to Mr. Alexander.

Go ahead.

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Thank you so much, Chair.

Thanks for those presentations. They were really exciting and stimulating, especially for someone like me who usually sits on the national defence committee. It's great to hear about these domestic priorities that are so important in every community across the country.

I was struck in all of your presentations by a certain tension that all levels of government face and that all of you face. On the one hand, there is the imperative of getting the people to where the jobs are. In some cases these are new communities. Nunavut is going to be developing on a large scale for the first time, and Yukon is seeing mines opening after seeing them closed. Then, on the other hand, there is this phenomenon you've all pointed to of less successful or less desirable outcomes for people who are leaving their communities in order to train or work. And when there's a two-stage process, when people leave their communities to go somewhere to train, and then they go to a third place to work, where probably the outcome is even worse, especially for people leaving aboriginal communities where education levels, as we know, are unfortunately so often so much lower.

I'm wondering what existing programs, federal government or other government programs, you think could be retooled or reformed to address this kind of issue. We've discussed some of them today. We obviously need to get people the training they need at home, before they go to work. But they also need to feel at home more quickly where they're going to find the work, whether it's in the oil sands, in Nunavut, or in Yukon. Have you seen programs under Human Resources Development Canada or Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada or at a provincial level in your communities that could be scaled up and do that work on that front?

We heard about these mobile trucks, which not all of us have seen, and I assume that's a fairly small-scale operation so far. But are we missing something there? Is there a model that could be scaled up that would not cost us too much, that would be retooling an existing program and making it more effective for what is going to be a wave of demands in small, and even large, new communities where these developments are happening?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Go ahead, Ms. Buckway.

[Bev Buckway]

Thank you.

I would tackle that in an offshoot way. One of the issues we face, of course, is housing. So even if you have a community that you can take people from another community to provide the training, there is not always adequate housing. We're seeing that right across the north. We have people who want to bring skilled people up north for jobs, but there's no housing for them. The people come up for interviews but say goodbye because there's no housing. Away they go.

In a lot of senses, it ties into the training, because although there are programs people can do, if they take the training and want to go back, there's no housing. So there could be some different incentive programs for housing and trying to find more rental housing for people. People who are training generally want to rent; they don't want to own a $450,000 house when they're in training. That doesn't work.

So I would urge you to look at the housing situation, and not just social housing, but market rental housing for people who are starting out, who are wanting to work their way up, and who are getting into the businesses to succeed. That helps individuals and it also helps businesses.

I can tell you that in Whitehorse right now, for two of our businesses it's only through the immigrants coming in to work that those businesses are able to survive. The housing situation isn't always great for them either, but that's how we're making a success of it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Mr. Alexander, you have about 30 seconds, so I think--

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Could I ask one quick question?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

If you have no windup to your question, if it's a short question, yes.

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

It will be really short.

All of you talked about diversification and value added—and here the Canadian Chamber mentioned that Thompson is doing it—and the use of clusters to help communities adjust to changing outlooks for their industries. Are there cases where we really have to say that, realistically, that's not a good strategy and that people should go to where the jobs are, to another community? How do we know when diversification is not working and that it is really time to...? Because some communities have gone down that route as well, whether we all like it or not.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Who wishes to field that? Ms. Buckway?

[Bev Buckway]

Well, I can say that in the north we're seeing places along the highways where there once were thriving businesses that are now gone. So I think it's a matter of economics, where it becomes self-fulfilling and people are just leaving, which is not necessarily a good thing. I think it's part of the change in our culture and the way technology is coming in. People have to adapt to the changes, and sometimes they're not willing to make the changes that we maybe need to make. But as we work through the years, these things become inevitable. As mines close, people move out and go elsewhere. It's tough. It's very difficult.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you.

Mr. Cuzner, go ahead.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

I'm going to blurt out four questions and then I'll just get out of the way, okay? We'll see how much time is left.

Ms. Sparks, I will ask you the first one. You mentioned that both the employers and the employees need job coaching through the process and supports for job coaching through the process. Could you elaborate on that and also on the role that unions might play in developing these opportunities in aboriginal communities?

Mr. Pineau, if I could, I'll throw two at you. We know through some of our trade agreements that any kinds of investments are sometimes seen as subsidies. I know that in the fishery when we invest in small craft harbours and when fishermen are receiving EI benefits, those are seen as subsidies now, and they're being challenged in some of our trade agreements. I want your sense as to whether or not we're bulletproof on training within your sector.

Last, could you make a comment on where we are with HR? I know that we have a number of forestry schools across the country. We have one in New Brunswick; UNB is there. What's the attendance like there? Are they fully subscribed? Could you comment on that?

We'll go to Ms. Sparks for her answers.

[Rosemary Sparks]

On the coaching question, I think it relates importantly and directly to retention. A lot of initiatives and activities that take place are about getting people employed initially, and I think we have to look at the whole issue of how we keep them employed successfully once they're there. For me, it's about creating an environment at the workplace that will ensure the success of those individuals. I think the worst thing we could do is to get someone employed, have it as a bad fit, as an inappropriate situation, and have them leave. I think the importance of coaching relates to retention.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

It's a key component of it.

[Rosemary Sparks]

Yes, a key component.

With respect to unions and their role in this, I see them as a key partner at the table with employers and all the other groups at the local level, working out some solutions that will be appropriate to that particular area.

I think they have role in training as well. They do play a training role in our industry, and so I think there are opportunities there for them to be engaged in that. I know that some of our unions are doing that, in fact. We have some examples of operating engineers working with folks in Nunavut to ensure that there's some training taking place.

So I think they have a training role, but they also have a role in working out some local solutions with the employer, with governments, and with the aboriginal groups.

[John Pineau]

In terms of your first question, what I see a lot of the time are public-private partnerships in research and development, where industry is investing a lot of money at the same time and pooling the financial resources to figure out how to do things better, how to make new products, and how to become more competitive.

I think we are bulletproof myself, or we should be interpreted as such on the world stage.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

This is such a hypersensitive industry.

[John Pineau]

Well, the softwood lumber dispute, which is chronic and probably isn't truly over....

I think that we are very good that way. We're seeing industry invest in a lot of research and development. They can always do more—certainly more on the forestry side, anyway—and governments are investing. I see federal and provincial governments and academia cooperating with industry as well. Again, FPInnovations, the Canadian Wood Fibre Centre, and Natural Resources Canada are all working together with industry and different universities to be more competitive, to come up with new products, and to make forestry work again.

With respect to your other question, that's a tougher one to answer. I think in some schools, some universities, and some colleges, they are oversubscribed. There's great interest in forestry still.

Often if the school changes the name of the program from forestry to say forest ecology, or natural resources management, or environmental science, it seems to get more kids into that stream.

That being said, traditional forestry, which has changed a lot, is interdisciplinary now. I think it's starting to see a resurgence at the community college level. Certainly in the technical programs, I'm seeing really good numbers there.

I think the universities are doing well. Certainly UBC is doing well. I think Lakehead is starting to turn around. I'm not as familiar with UNB. I'm on their advisory board, but I haven't seen any statistics lately. I think they're coming back too. So we're starting to see a little bit more interest there.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

On the naming of forestry programs, I come from a coal-mining community, and our coal miners became fossil fuel extraction technicians.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[John Pineau]

It helps.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

It's a little more sexy now...around the girls.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

I guess that comment brings us to a conclusion. I'd like to thank all of the witnesses for taking the time to present to us. I would ask and remind you to file your briefing notes with us, if you could.

Again, thank you very much and safe travels.

The meeting is adjourned.