Evidence of meeting #41 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was jobs.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Karen Kinsley  President, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation
Karen Jackson  Senior Associate Deputy Minister, and Chief Operating Officer for Service Canada, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

I said not all of us, but it's coming.

We're still vital individuals with a lot to contribute. We want to make sure we're also working with employers to make sure that they recognize the value that older workers provide to their workplaces.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

Thank you for that, minister.

Your time is up.

Madame Boutin-Sweet, go ahead.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for coming here today. Thank you, Madam Minister.

I would like to talk to you about housing. As you know, there are 600,000 social housing units in Canada, with long-term subsidies, including 127,000 in Quebec. Some of these subsidies have already expired. Others will expire in the next few years. It is said that approximately 75,000 units will be affected between now and 2016. These are all buildings that are at least 25 years old. They need renovations. Should the low-income tenants who are subsidized lose this subsidy, they will have to pay double or triple the rent that they are currently paying or find housing at $90 per month. What can you find at that price? A hovel with truly horrible conditions. Or else they will have to choose between paying rent, buying food or buying clothing for their children.

According to your main estimates, you feel that you will be saving $21.7 million, once the agreements expire. Does that mean that your department does not intend to renew these agreements?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

The Conservative government believes that all Canadians are entitled to safe and affordable housing. That is why it is investing nearly $2 billion every year in affordable housing. However—

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

I apologize for interrupting you, Madam Minister. I will repeat my question: do you intend to renew the agreements?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

May I continue?

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

If you answer my question, yes.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

These agreements are entered into with the provinces. The Province of Quebec administers the agreements.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

However, cooperatives do not come under provincial jurisdiction.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

There is also a group which includes representatives from the provinces, territories and the federal government, that is looking at the situation that you have described in order to determine the best action to take.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

Are you saying that you are thinking about renewing the agreements? If so, where is this indicated in the budget? It is not apparent in the budget.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

The budget that we are presenting here reflects base funding, and does not include other things. We cannot draw up a budget for something that we do not know. There are still two years remaining in the agreements with the provinces. That is why we have established this group with representatives from both levels of government, in order to look at what measures need to be taken in the future.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

There are agreements with the provinces, but there are also direct agreements between the federal government and housing cooperatives, for instance. Will these agreements be renewed? I believe this is an issue for the Canada Mortgage and Housing Cooperation.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

I will turn the floor over to Karen Kinsley, president of CMHC.

3:55 p.m.

Karen Kinsley President, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

You referred to agreements that are expiring.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

Indeed.

3:55 p.m.

President, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Karen Kinsley

As the minister mentioned, a task force is currently analyzing the situation but, for the time being, it is not clear that all projects are in the same state. Some projects are doing well whereas others require work. A task force, in discussing the situation with the provinces and the territories, will enable us to determine which projects require improvement, as you mentioned, and which are now viable. We have not yet completed the work to determine the current situation or state of affairs with any accuracy.

4 p.m.

NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

So the annual amount of $21.7 million could be used for that purpose? Is that a possibility?

4 p.m.

President, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Karen Kinsley

The amount that now figures in our main estimates is, as the minister stated, the base funding for the current situation. The conclusions of the task force will determine what we need to do in the years that lie ahead. So that is not reflected in the budget as such.

4 p.m.

NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

In that case, I have a second question for you, Madam Minister. I met with representatives from the Cooperative Housing Federation of Canada who informed me of a pilot project involving two cooperatives with excellent financing, but requiring significant repair. They tried to secure a mortgage with private organizations in order to deal with this situation, in order to keep the rents affordable, etc.

Unfortunately, when they went to see the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation in order to cancel the current funding arrangement and obtain a new mortgage, they were told that not only did they have to reimburse the current debt, which is fine, but in addition, there was a five-year penalty. So they had to pay five years' interest, namely $140,000, which was not possible for them.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

Madame Boutin-Sweet, your time is up. If you could put the question, I'll let the minister—

4 p.m.

NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

I am asking my question.

Would you be prepared to review the prepayment rules, to ensure that groups, like this one, who are trying to get out of an agreement, can do so?

4 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

When you negotiate a mortgage, you have to decide whether it will be at a fixed rate or at a variable rate. When organizations have opted to have a fixed-rate mortgage, they have made a choice. In this case, the interest rates were lower than the market rates. So if they wish to change the mortgage and the conditions, they have to wait until the mortgage expires. The same thing applies for a mortgage on your house. You have to make a choice or pay a penalty, if you wish to make a change. At that point in time, the rates were really very favourable.

4 p.m.

NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

When you enter into a mortgage with a private organization, you have to pay a penalty of several months, not a five-year penalty.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

Thank you for that exchange.

We will move now to Mr. Daniel.

Go ahead.