Evidence of meeting #55 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was charity.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Siobhan Harty  Director General, Social Policy Directorate, Strategic Policy and Research Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Miodrag Jovanovic  Director, Personal Income Tax, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Cathy Hawara  Director General, Charities Directorate, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

4:20 p.m.

Director General, Charities Directorate, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

Cathy Hawara

Thank you for the question.

Of course, I can't speak about specific cases because of the confidentiality provisions of the Income Tax Act, but I am happy to speak generally about the rules.

I think the starting point has to be that there are a number of different ways in which charities can generate revenues. They can generate revenues through charitable programs. There's no limit on how much revenue they can generate through charitable programs. They can generate revenue through business activities, and there are rules around business activities. They need to be related business activities. If they meet all of the requirements laid out in the Income Tax Act, there's no limit to how profitable those things can be. Simply looking at the percentage of the business revenue in relation to the overall revenues wouldn't be a sufficient indicator from our perspective.

In a scenario similar to what you've described, where a charity's purpose is to help relieve employment of a group of at-risk youth, let's say, or help relieve the conditions associated or related to these at-risk youth, part of the activities of the charity could certainly be providing on-the-job training, training skills, and providing the kinds of opportunities that you've described. That could all very well be a charitable activity. It's going to be a factual determination based on the individual facts of the case.

The first question I would have is whether the activity is a charitable activity that allows the charity to generate revenue. If the activity is not a charitable activity, it could still be a related business activity. Charities are allowed to participate in related business activities to the extent that.... There are two forms of related businesses. One, either a business is linked and subordinate to the charitable purpose of the charity, so the charitable purpose always has to be the focus of the organization, or two, linkage is established by looking at whether it's a use of excess capacity or whether it's an offshoot of the charitable program. There is a number of criteria we would use to determine whether the business is a related business.

If the business is not linked to the charitable purpose, but it is run substantially by volunteers, then that is absolutely acceptable under the Income Tax Act. There are many rules in place currently that allow charities to generate the kinds of revenues and the kinds of social outcomes that you've described. You can find both of those in two of the policies we've put out. One is the community economic development policy and the other is our related business policy, which lays all of this out, including some examples, to help charities.

We are constantly looking at the policy work we do and the policies we have available to charities. We listen to the feedback that we hear from charities. A lot of times what they tell us is that examples are really helpful, and to the extent that we can provide examples of what's acceptable, those are the kinds of things that they're looking for.

I have one last comment on charities being concerned about their charitable status. Our approach is an education-first approach, whether it's through the educational materials we provide or through the compliance work we do. To the extent that we can work with charities, explain to them the rules, and help them get back on track, that's what we aim to do.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Butt Conservative Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

Very good. Thank you.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Typically, we go to the NDP for the next round of questions, but they have yielded their time. I am going to suggest we open it up to any other members who wish to pose questions.

Mr. Boughen, you are next, then.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Ray Boughen Conservative Palliser, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I welcome the panel.

Just for my own edification, are you the folks who visited with us a while ago when we had to bail out on you because the bells rang and we had to run over to vote? No?

4:25 p.m.

Director General, Social Policy Directorate, Strategic Policy and Research Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Siobhan Harty

No, that didn't happen to me. Blair and I were here at the beginning, but you didn't abandon us.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Ray Boughen Conservative Palliser, SK

Well, we are glad you didn't hold it against us and you showed up today, so welcome.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Jim Eglinski Conservative Yellowhead, AB

They have you marked down for income tax.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Butt Conservative Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

You're getting audited.

4:25 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Ray Boughen Conservative Palliser, SK

We've heard from a lot of witnesses about the different aspects of social finance. I am wondering if somebody could walk us through what qualifies for a registered charity. There are 86,000 registered charities, and I think I receive mail from hundreds of them. They all want the same thing, money.

Could you talk a little bit about non-profit charities and how you can make money in the charity game and not pay tax on it? I am interested in that.

4:25 p.m.

Director General, Charities Directorate, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

Cathy Hawara

Yes, I can take that question. Thank you very much.

There are 86,000 registered charities in Canada today, more or less.

In order to be registered as a charity in Canada, you have to meet a few requirements. First, you have to have exclusively charitable purposes. Charitable purposes are actually not defined in the Income Tax Act. We have to look to what the courts have said. There are four broad categories of charity: charities that relieve poverty; charities that advance education; charities that advance religion; and then another catch-all with charities that advance other purposes beneficial to the community as a whole. You'll find lots of different kinds of organizations in that last category, including health organizations and animal welfare organizations.

When we receive applications from organizations that want to be registered, we have to satisfy ourselves that they have exclusively charitable purposes and activities that will further those purposes. As part of that analysis, we have to assure ourselves that they will be delivering a public benefit. Those would be the main requirements to be a registered charity in Canada, to get in the door, as opposed to a non-profit organization. Oftentimes the two types of organizations are mistaken one for the other.

A non-profit organization is defined in the Income Tax Act as being a club, association, or society that is organized to carry out activities that relate to civic improvement, recreation, pleasure, etc., for any purpose other than profit. That is essentially the definition of a non-profit organization. They cannot have a profit purpose. They are limited in the kinds of activities they can undertake that generate some income, although it is not impossible, by any means.

The difference between the two in terms of obligations is that, first of all, charities are registered; NPOs are not. Charities have to file a public return that is made available to the public through our website; non-profit organizations do not.

Those are the kinds of distinctions between the two.

Our directorate is focused exclusively on registered charities. I don't deal with non-profit organizations.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ray Boughen Conservative Palliser, SK

Under the social finance umbrella, we have all these various charities, bonds, and investments. Is that true? We put all these different charitable organizations under the umbrella that we call “social finance”.

4:30 p.m.

Director General, Social Policy Directorate, Strategic Policy and Research Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Siobhan Harty

Not per se....

Charities exist in civil society to serve the purposes that Cathy mentioned. I would say that social finance is just an instrument, just as charitable donations are in order to be able to help them advance some of their objectives. They are different types of funding streams that can help a charity or a not-for-profit organization accomplish a goal or a mission within all the rules and regulations that Cathy articulated.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ray Boughen Conservative Palliser, SK

When it comes to taxation, if we're talking about stocks and bonds, there are set taxation procedures to go through. Do the charities have a set procedure to go through, or do they fall under the stocks and bonds issues that we deal with?

4:30 p.m.

Director, Personal Income Tax, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Miodrag Jovanovic

A registered charity would not be subject to tax, and the income generated within the charity, as long as, as we explained before, it's income related to a related business or direct income generated by the charitable activities, then it's tax-exempt.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

I think that's exhausted. I was going to keep time limits on things.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ray Boughen Conservative Palliser, SK

That's good, Chair. Thank you very much.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

I have an indication that you would like to ask a supplementary question, Mr. Mayes.

We're opening the floor up to members. If you choose to carry on the meeting by asking questions, I'm going to give you the latitude to ask them.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Mr. Chair, this will be the last question for the government side.

Is there a board or a spokesperson from the various charitable groups across Canada to help you? For example, do they discuss with you policies they are interested in? Does anyone provide input to your department, give you feedback so you know some of their challenges? Is that established and ongoing?

4:30 p.m.

Director General, Social Policy Directorate, Strategic Policy and Research Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Siobhan Harty

In terms of an active consultation process, no. There's no advisory board of charitable organizations that meets with us on a regular basis, but as with many other government departments, we regularly meet with stakeholders.

I would say that over the years we meet with stakeholders in the sector to discuss various issues. Imagine Canada was mentioned. That's a stakeholder group we meet with fairly frequently in my department. It serves as an umbrella group and that facilitates quite an energetic discussion.

In other cases, we just meet with individual organizations that might have an idea they want to share with us about a program or an intervention that they think might work within the department's mandate.

In the area of social finance per se, there have been task forces. There was an ad hoc task force created out of MaRS in Toronto in 2010. Since then there has been a national advisory board to that G-8 Social Impact Investment Taskforce that I mentioned earlier. As well, it's ad hoc. It doesn't have any long-term standing, but it did publish a report. I think, given the representation that was on that national advisory board from across the country, it does serve as one voice. It's not a model, but it's one voice, and there are many others out there.

I think, as my colleagues would agree, part of our responsibilities is to be able to meet with stakeholder groups and hear what their ideas and their concerns are.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you.

4:35 p.m.

Director General, Charities Directorate, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

Cathy Hawara

I would just add that, because the charities directorate works so closely with registered charities in particular, we do have mechanisms in place to ensure ongoing consultation and engagement with them, and we do it in a variety of ways.

We have a working group with representation from different types of organizations, including umbrella organizations we meet with twice a year to discuss a range of issues that relate to the regulation of charities in Canada.

Whenever I refer to policy documents that we prepare and publish on our website, those documents we consult on as well before we finalize them to make sure that we understand what the impact of them might be on the ground, and so that we can adjust them as we go. We continually receive feedback on those and update them.

Those are just two examples of the ways in which we engage with the charitable sector.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you very much.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Thank you.

Madam Groguhé.

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Sadia Groguhé NDP Saint-Lambert, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Harty, I would like some clarification.

How will we proceed with social finance? Are we going to keep issuing calls for proposals under a very specific framework for which the organizations will be able to submit an application or will it be the organizations that will issue very specific requests to implement such-and-such a project?