Evidence of meeting #102 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was apprentices.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Terence Snooks  International Representative, United Association of Journeymen and Apprentices of the Plumbing and Pipefitting Industry of the United States and Canada, Canada's Building Trades Unions
Mary Collins  Business Outreach Liaison, Trade Winds to Success Training Society
Sarah Watts-Rynard  Executive Director, Canadian Apprenticeship Forum
Tim McEwan  Senior Vice-President, Policy and Stakeholder Engagement, Independent Contractors and Businesses Association of British Columbia
Nobina Robinson  Chief Executive Officer, Polytechnics Canada
Matthew Henderson  Policy and Data Analyst, Polytechnics Canada

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Steven Blaney Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC

Yes. Even our structure is condescending. That's a very good point.

Thank you.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

MP Long, please.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd certainly like to welcome my friend MP Vecchio back to HUMA for a brief appearance.

I come from the riding of Saint John—Rothesay in New Brunswick. I think it goes without saying that we have the largest refinery in eastern Canada. It's a very labour-oriented, union-oriented industrial riding, like that of my friend MP Blaney.

I was at an event about a year ago hosted by Irving Oil. I was shocked; with respect to the trades, over the next five years in southern New Brunswick there will be 1,200 empty trades jobs. They are having trouble filling them. They launched a program, in conjunction with UA Canada and the National Association of Union Schools and Colleges, called REWARD. I'm not sure if you're familiar with it. It's the regional education welder apprentice retention and development program.

Mr. Snooks, how important is it that industry comes up with programs like that to encourage young apprentices to get involved and join?

4:20 p.m.

International Representative, United Association of Journeymen and Apprentices of the Plumbing and Pipefitting Industry of the United States and Canada, Canada's Building Trades Unions

Terence Snooks

It's extremely important. With the REWARD program, in particular—and we're trying to get clients involved across the country—the client is guaranteeing the apprenticeship program for the individuals. They don't employ the individuals. Companies that work for the client, that are signatory to us, employ them, but under direction from the client. The client is guaranteeing the completion of the apprenticeship for these individuals. That's key: completion of apprenticeships. Mr. McEwan mentioned it. I'm not going to start the union/non-union argument, but unions control their apprenticeships a little bit better. Still, we don't have exceptional completion rates in our apprenticeship program.

This guarantees that any youth coming in can finish their apprenticeship and enjoy a future from there on.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

I'm going to jump in here. It was very refreshing that out of the 10 apprentices, five or six were female. That was very encouraging. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's been no improvement in women in the labour force over 30 years; no uptake. In my opinion, recruitment efforts to get women to join labour jobs will only be successful if there is apprentice-style training.

What can we do as a government to encourage more women to join the labour movement?

4:20 p.m.

International Representative, United Association of Journeymen and Apprentices of the Plumbing and Pipefitting Industry of the United States and Canada, Canada's Building Trades Unions

Terence Snooks

I think it's just education. The women you talked about aren't in the program because they're women. They're in the program because they were the best candidates for the job. There are a lot of women out there who are interested, but we have to get the message out there that these jobs are available to all people.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Ms. Robinson and Mr. Snooks, you both talked about how the trades and post-secondary need to be aligned and need to work more together to make sure that the proper training is offered. Would you agree? Mr. Snooks, you said, and I'm just going to quote you, that you're “the last ones consulted” sometimes, for change on how apprentice programs should work.

Do you feel there is alignment between post-secondary, polytech, what have you, and labour, with respect to offering those programs? What would you suggest to align better?

4:20 p.m.

International Representative, United Association of Journeymen and Apprentices of the Plumbing and Pipefitting Industry of the United States and Canada, Canada's Building Trades Unions

Terence Snooks

I think you have to communicate with the trades themselves to get the proper curriculum in the schools. I'm not sure that we are always on the same line. There's a standard training and there's the training that's required. I don't believe the two are always on the same path, because nobody is consulted.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Does anybody else want to answer?

4:20 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Polytechnics Canada

Nobina Robinson

We all think we know what apprenticeship is, but we don't really. I certainly would have to admit to you that when I took this job nine years ago, I did not know how it was delivered.

Let me make it real for you. If you're Algonquin College here in Ottawa, or La Cité collégiale, you are delivering publicly funded, post-secondary programs, diplomas, credentials, or, in the case of Algonquin, degrees. In addition, the province has come and and given you seats to offer apprenticeship training. It's all controlled by the provinces...the jurisdictional aspect of it all.

You can't just say, “I'm open to 1,000 apprentices.” You get your allocation, and the college has to go find the employers that are willing to have that apprentice. It's dealt with outside post-secondary. While colleges offer a large number of apprentice training programs, we're doing so outside post-secondary.

The parity of esteem that I want is that by grade 8, students are told that, by grade 12 and onwards, they could do this or they could do this, and this is what both will lead to. The average starting age of a first-year apprentice is 26, if I'm not mistaken. That means they have come to apprenticeship later.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Yes, you're right.

4:25 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Polytechnics Canada

Nobina Robinson

The alignment that I'm talking about is less about the unions—that happens in the case of the CCDA and the Canadian Apprenticeship Forum bringing all jurisdictions together. The alignment I'm talking about treats this as equal learning, which is why I'm so proud of the Canada apprentice loan. It was put through in 2014, and treats a student as both a learner and an apprentice.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Thank you very much.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Thank you.

Now we go over to Madam Sansoucy for six minutes.

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Brigitte Sansoucy NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to all the witnesses for the information they have given us.

In your presentations, we have clearly seen the extent to which apprenticeship programs are an excellent way of preparing people for a career in a given trade. You also told us about the challenges you face in your areas.

In my constituency, efforts have been made to promote careers in the trades, and the effect was to increase the number of registrations in the École professionnelle de Saint-Hyacinthe.

That promotion was done in various ways. For example, all students in the public high schools spend a day in the vocational school so that they can try out various trades. In recent years, we have seen international education students now going to the vocational school after finishing high school, whereas before, they went off to post-secondary studies.

I would like to take advantage of your expertise to find out whether it would be possible to expand apprenticeship programs to non-specialized jobs. Let me explain why I want to know that.

When I visit entrepreneurs in my constituency, they tell me that employees in their companies are retiring and taking all their knowledge with them. They would appreciate it if, in the final years, when the productivity of those employees is dropping, either because of age or their physical abilities, they could pass on their knowledge to young people entering the company. They are the employees who really know to operate the equipment and the ways of working. As they are often SMEs, they do not have sufficient resources to pay the salaries of both an employee two years away from retirement and of a young employee just entering the company.

In your opinion, would salary subsidies mean that the young people and the mentors could be paired up before the latter retire? It could be a way of dealing with the situation. Other witnesses have told us that, in seven years, Quebec will have over a million jobs to fill. It is difficult to build a bridge between the available jobs and the people looking for them, especially kids who have dropped out of high school before they finish.

You are very familiar with apprenticeship programs. Is there a way to expand those programs to the kinds of non-specialized jobs, for which, in the constituency I represent, there is a shortage of labour.

I see that you are nodding your head, Ms. Robinson. So let me ask you the question.

May 7th, 2018 / 4:30 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Polytechnics Canada

Nobina Robinson

Thank you. If I understood your questions, you're asking me, one, if there is a possibility of expanding apprenticeship models to other professions that are not traditional trades, and two, about the wage subsidy.

I believe that one should be able to say that more professions need that apprenticeship model, but in Canada that will be very hard. We have 390-odd trades that have that “apprenticeable” model, but for graphic design or animation arts, let's say, we haven't made those apprenticeable professions. Instead, we're doing work-integrated learning. That's what you're admiring in Europe. It's difficult to bring that into Canada without causing all kinds of other distortions.

On your point on wage subsidies, the federal government is very proud of a new program, the student work-integrated learning program, SWILP. Did you know, Madam Sansoucy, that it does not apply to apprentices? Why is that?

So yes, we can do more with wage subsidies, and maybe my colleague, Sarah Watts-Rynard, would have some thoughts.

4:30 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Apprenticeship Forum

Sarah Watts-Rynard

It goes back to what I was saying earlier. Just because apprentices are in the midst of their post-secondary training rather than being completers of that training, they're currently not eligible for those wage subsidy programs. It puts them behind the eight ball a bit when you see a program such as the student work-integrated learning program, as an example, which actually incents employers to take on people who have done perhaps a technician or a technology diploma in a college, but not to take on somebody straight into the workforce as an apprentice.

Really, what it has served to do is to undermine apprenticeship instead of supporting it, in that it becomes those programs.... You have to hire them as a full-time worker. You don't hire them as an apprentice under those wage subsidy programs the way they currently exist, which is why my recommendation is that either we have wage subsidies that are appropriate to apprenticeship, or we expand the definition to include post-secondary learners at any stage of their learning pathway, rather than only once they've completed.

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Brigitte Sansoucy NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Okay, thank you.

My next questions goes to Ms. Collins in Edmonton.

You said you have a unique program and I am curious to know whether it exists anywhere else.

The main not-for-profit organization with an apprenticeship program is chronically underfunded. You said that you wanted to increase your programming and that you have long waiting lists.

What do you need to get your waiting lists reduced and to increase the range of your programs.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

You have almost no time left, but I'll allow a quick answer.

4:35 p.m.

Business Outreach Liaison, Trade Winds to Success Training Society

Mary Collins

Probably I would say more funding—double or triple what we receive currently. We can train 260 indigenous clients per year. We need to do more.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Thank you.

Now we go over to Mr. Morrissey, please.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE

Thank you, Chair.

My question is to Ms. Collins, and I'll follow up from my colleague.

You referenced that your training is unique in North America. Could you explain a bit about what makes it unique?

4:35 p.m.

Business Outreach Liaison, Trade Winds to Success Training Society

Mary Collins

It would be our partnerships with the indigenous assets holders as well as the union training centres. As well, of course, recently we've gone out to the first nations communities as well as the Métis settlements here in Alberta. And, of course, it's also the employers.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE

What trades do you focus on?

4:35 p.m.

Business Outreach Liaison, Trade Winds to Success Training Society

Mary Collins

Currently, it's carpenters, electricians, plumbers, pipefitters, welders, insulators, ironworkers, and, of course, construction craft labourers.