Evidence of meeting #114 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was child.
A video is available from Parliament.
9:15 a.m.
South Surrey—White Rock, Lib.
From a subjective perspective, would you say that what we're doing in Canada now is on the leading edge?
9:15 a.m.
Director, Employment Insurance Policy, Special Benefits Policy, Department of Employment and Social Development
I would argue that Canada is one of the countries that has quickly come to recognize and provide paid leave, paid supports through the employment insurance program for the care of a critically ill or injured family member, as well as to provide support to family members who are at the end of their lives.
9:15 a.m.
South Surrey—White Rock, Lib.
I noticed that in the submission they were talking about medical certificates and the engagement of medical doctors and/or nurse practitioners for making some judgments. From my experience in looking at PTSD and having some experiences with it in some previous life iterations, people's responses to it are very varied. It becomes a very subjective response to it.
How much engagement do we have in terms of sudden infant death syndrome, PTSD and the variance of that? How are those judgments made? The policy framework seems sort of clinical. How much of that is dictated, or do we have medical health professionals coming in and saying a person is suffering from PTSD and therefore needs to be engaged for a more lengthy period of time? Do we have some flexibility on that, or how are those determinations made?
9:20 a.m.
Director, Employment Insurance Policy, Special Benefits Policy, Department of Employment and Social Development
We don't know the reasons for EI sickness benefits claims; however, we did consult with the medical community in developing the medical forms, the medical certificate that is required for the EI caregiving benefits.
9:20 a.m.
Liberal
Ramesh Sangha Liberal Brampton Centre, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you, Andrew and Rutha, for coming and for your valuable input to the committee.
We are doing this study to see how we can improve the level of compassion and support for grieving parents and to ensure that parents do not suffer any undue financial or emotional hardship. Losing a child has a devastating effect on a parent. Money cannot compensate for it. Everybody knows that. We know that, but we want to give something to the parents so that they are able to cope with hardships.
Andrew, you talked about the sickness benefits. You suggested that there are some benefits and you advised that parents can go and look for those benefits. You also talked about the emotional and psychological effects of grieving to remove the grief. You also talked about how support may provide some measure of assistance for parents in the event of the loss of a child. You think these grieving parents, those who need the support.... Are you saying that you want to provide this by way of counselling or by directly giving something as a sickness benefit—money—to them, or do you mean both of those?
9:20 a.m.
Director General, Employment Insurance Policy Directorate, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
I'm going to start with that last point, just to say that we would see that the EI program, in terms of the income support that it can provide to workers and to families in this sense, would only be part of what they would need, and that's the part that I think we could speak to. They could certainly benefit from other supports that might be provided at the provincial level, perhaps by their employer or perhaps by community-based organizations. Those kinds of supports might be provided to grieving individuals trying to cope with the situation. We would see EI as only part of the solution there.
A couple of things are important to remember. EI is a very large program. We administer over two million claims annually. Something that's really important is that we get to rules that are as clear as possible so that we're able to administer such a large program that affects people across the country.
In the event of the death of a child when a parent is receiving parental benefits, we want it to be as easy as possible for parents to be able to signal that to us, so that we can make the necessary changes, because one of the concerns we've heard is that in some cases, benefits continue to be paid, and then the result, unfortunately, is that not only is the family dealing with a grieving situation, but when the death of the child becomes known, we actually have to reach out to that family and seek repayment of benefits that should not have been paid. We're looking to make that as simple as possible. The way that happens is that a parent can simply call Service Canada, provide the information about their own claim, and note that the child has passed away. There's that financial impact as well.
In terms of sickness, I said “may”. To my point about it being a large program, we don't assess whether the person is sick or not. What we do is require them to provide us with a note from a doctor that indicates they are unable to work due to injury or illness. In the case of the sickness benefit, if they've received a note from a doctor that says they're not able to work at the moment, then we would accept that as eligibility for the sickness benefit.
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
Ramesh Sangha Liberal Brampton Centre, ON
It's different from person to person, parent to parent. Some people are able to cope quite early, while some people take more time, not healing for their whole life. We also know, as you mentioned, that the community helps. Our families as well, when we start grieving with them, consoling them, giving them support from the heart, start recovering sooner.
Do you have something like that so that they can recover more easily?
9:25 a.m.
Director General, Employment Insurance Policy Directorate, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
I don't know if there is any....
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
Ramesh Sangha Liberal Brampton Centre, ON
What I mean is, is there some sort of counselling, some community counselling or at the parents' level or the family level, in this type of program?
9:25 a.m.
Director General, Employment Insurance Policy Directorate, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
At the federal level, I'm not aware of counselling such as grief counselling, for example, that we provide for Canadians. I think that might be something that is administered at the local or the provincial level, in terms of an individual seeking support or help in coping either with grief or with a potential mental health or mental wellness situation.
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bryan May
Thank you very much.
For six minutes, we now have MP Richards.
Welcome, sir.
9:25 a.m.
Blake Richards Banff—Airdrie, CPC
Thank you.
Because I'm short on time, I'm going to approach this issue very factually, but I have to point out that I think it's very important when we're looking at an issue like this one that we approach it from a compassionate basis. That is critical.
You have given your remarks here, and I appreciate that your job is to provide us with information on what's available now, but I will tell you that some of the examples given are not adequate to meet the needs of most of the families who are suffering from loss.
In terms of the sickness benefits that you so rightly said “may” be available, I can certainly tell you many stories of parents who were not able to access sickness benefits for grief. There's a bereavement period of three days, which you're saying is going to be extended to five days, and it is certainly not adequate in almost all cases for people to be able to grieve the loss of a child. Also, the idea of working while on claim, although it may be helpful for those who have been able to qualify, certainly won't do anything for anyone who isn't able to qualify, and I've indicated that this is the case.
You also mentioned—and I appreciated it—that you want to try to do everything you can to make it as easy as possible for parents to be able to signal that this is the situation. What I would ask you is, what would be required in order to create a benefit that would be specific for bereavement leave for parents and to make that benefit happen automatically so that parents don't have to make numerous calls to Service Canada offices to explain the situation and tell their story and put themselves through that grief? You can appreciate that in this situation, letting Service Canada know what's going on is not the first thing on their minds.
How do we create a benefit that would apply for all parents in these situations? How do we make it so that it would be automatic and we wouldn't need parents to be thinking of that at a time when they shouldn't have to be?
9:30 a.m.
Director General, Employment Insurance Policy Directorate, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Thanks for those questions. I think there are a lot of elements to that situation. I certainly can understand where that's coming in and the focus on compassion.
I guess one thing I would mention right from the start is that for anything that's administered through the EI program, we will have an issue in terms of whether the person is or is not able to qualify for EI benefits at all.
9:30 a.m.
Director General, Employment Insurance Policy Directorate, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
It would be necessary to think about whether it would be within the EI program or—
9:30 a.m.
Director General, Employment Insurance Policy Directorate, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Okay.
9:30 a.m.
Banff—Airdrie, CPC
—but just in the interest of time, here's what I want to get to. Is there a way that we can create this benefit and make it automatic, whereby maybe information would be provided from the health system and there is an automatic benefit so that people don't have to go through the bureaucratic nightmare to try to find a way to give themselves some time to grieve? Is there a way?
I understand that they have to be able to qualify for a benefit if it's through the EI system, but assuming that's the case, is it possible to create this? Could it be made automatic? Is this something that could be done if there's a will to do it?
9:30 a.m.
Director General, Employment Insurance Policy Directorate, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
If there's a will to do it, then I think there is a way to do it, but I wouldn't want to give the sense that it's something that is easy to achieve either. In terms of something that is initiated by the death of a person, we would need to think about how that information, which is probably then captured by provincial or territorial authorities, could be provided to the federal government and then how to identify specifically parents that could benefit, whether it's from EI or some other measure. I think these sorts of things are possible—
9:30 a.m.
Banff—Airdrie, CPC
Thank you.
What about the idea of collecting statistics? You mentioned in response to one of the questions earlier—I think it was from Mr. Long—that you really didn't have statistics on these. What would be required for you to be able to collect those kinds of stats? I'll ask for a brief answer because I do have a few other questions.
9:30 a.m.
Director, Employment Insurance Policy, Special Benefits Policy, Department of Employment and Social Development
To collect that kind of information we would have to go through a privacy assessment perspective in order to change the nature of the program and the application forms.
I would note that when we change application forms, it creates new obligations on medical doctors, nurse practitioners, and others to learn how to fill out the new forms, but there's always a need for a medical form for these benefits.
Can I just add to the previous question?
9:30 a.m.
Banff—Airdrie, CPC
You know what? I'm really sorry, but I have a couple of other questions to ask and I have about a minute to do it. Unfortunately we're limited here.
I wanted to ask a little bit about Service Canada agents and whether they're trained to deal with grieving parents, if they receive any specialized training in that regard, and if there's a way to set up a dedicated line. I know for some other streams there are dedicated lines, but could there be a dedicated line that would deal with grieving parents and provide someone who would understand their situation and be able to provide the services that are available to them and be compassionate about the loss they've received or had? Can you tell us whether there's any training and whether it would be possible to set something like that up?
9:30 a.m.
Director General, Employment Insurance Policy Directorate, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
I can certainly say that there are Service Canada agents who are trained for various sensitive situations. That said, I'm not aware of a specific line that would be available to parents who have just suffered the loss of a child. I would have to go back to Service Canada to ask about that, but I'm not aware of one existing for that situation.