Human Resources Committee on Oct. 22nd, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

I call the meeting to order.

Good evening, everyone.

First of all, I want to thank everybody for joining us this evening. We are going to continue with the study of Bill C-81. I have a bit of a preamble here, so please bear with me.

Welcome to today's meeting on Bill C-81, an act to ensure a barrier-free Canada. The objective of today's meeting is to continue the committee's thorough review of the bill.

I would like to take a moment to remind both those participating in the proceedings and those observing the proceedings in person and on video that the committee adopted a motion on September 18 that included instructions for the clerk to explore options to allow for the full participation of all witnesses and members of the public on this study. As a result, the committee has made arrangements to make all meetings in relation to the study of Bill C-81 as accessible as possible in a variety of ways.

This includes providing sign language interpretation and near-real-time closed captioning in the room. Please note that both American Sign Language and Quebec Sign Language are being offered to those in our audience. Those who would like to watch the American Sign Language interpretation should please sit on the benches to my left. Those who would like to watch the Quebec Sign Language interpretation should please sit on the benches to my right. In addition, please note that the first few rows of benches have been reserved for those who wish to avail themselves of these interpretation services.

Screens displaying the near-real-time closed captioning have also been set up. The English text is to my left, and the French text is to my right. The sign language interpreters in the room are also being videorecorded for the eventual broadcast of the meeting on ParlVu via the committees website.

In light of these arrangements, the committee would ask that if you need to leave the room during the meeting, please do not walk in front of the sign language interpreters. Instead, please use the extremities of the room. In addition, we would ask that those in the room remain seated as much as possible during the meeting so that everyone in attendance can clearly see the sign language interpretations.

Finally, if a member of the audience requires assistance at any time, please notify a member of the staff or the committee clerk.

I will also ask the witnesses present today or appearing via video conference and all of my colleagues to keep your speech at a slow pace to allow the interpreters to do their job and be able to keep up. If at any time I see that anybody may be going a little bit too fast, I will interrupt, so I apologize in advance. We want to make sure that your words are captured by the interpreters throughout the meeting.

I'm very pleased to welcome our first panel here this evening. From the Vancouver Airport Authority, we have Mr. Craig Richmond, President and Chief Executive Officer, joining us via video conference from Vancouver, British Columbia.

Can you hear me okay, sir?

[Craig Richmond, President and Chief Executive Officer, Vancouver Airport Authority]

Yes, sir.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Excellent.

We also have in attendance here today, from the Canadian Transportation Agency, Mr. Scott Streiner, Chair and Chief Executive Officer. From VIA Rail Canada, we have Yves Desjardins-Siciliano, President and Chief Executive Officer, and John-Nicolas Morello, Senior Legal Counsel, Legal and Corporate Affairs.

Welcome to all of you.

We're going to start this first round with five-minute statements, and then we'll go to rounds of questions.

Mr. Richmond, the first five-minute statement is all yours.

[Craig Richmond]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the committee for inviting me to speak today.

I'm very grateful to have this opportunity to talk about accessibility. I'd like to provide you with a broad perspective on behalf of the airport community, because it's an important topic that will impact us all.

First I'd like to quickly give some context. As you may know, most Canadian airports are managed by local, not-for-profit organizations. Under this unique model, we do not receive any money from the government. Instead, we operate as private companies, having to compete and innovate to stay ahead of the competition. However, we are not beholden to shareholders. We reinvest all profits back into our airports, which allows for constant improvements. Underpinning this is a commitment to provide an exceptional experience for everyone.

YVR has become a model of accessibility and inclusion because we believe that everyone who wants to fly should be able to fly, and everyone who wants to work at the airport should have that opportunity. We have spent the last 25 years making our airport barrier-free.

For instance, we have universal food and service counters that welcome people using wheeled mobility devices. We use low-resistance carpeting on our floors for easier movement and greater stability. We work with a range of partners to ensure that YVR meets high standards through terminal audits. We host experiential tours to test our facilities. This includes a tour for families living with autism and a tour for those living with spinal cord injuries.

We also address non-visible disabilities. For instance, we just introduced our Fly Calm initiative with the Canadian Mental Health Association. This program helps travellers de-stress prior to air travel.

In addition to making our airport barrier-free, we also strive for employment equity. We've been named one of Canada's best diversity employers, and just recently the federal government has recognized our achievement with the Sector Distinction award and the Employment Equity Champion award.

We got to this point because we set equity targets, closely monitor them, and take action. Currently women make up 42% of our workforce; visible minorities make up 33%; aboriginal peoples make up almost 2%; and persons with disabilities make up 3%. In fact, persons with disabilities made up 4.8% of our hires this year. Yes, we have work to do, but we're heading in the right direction.

We also have a large range of programs to promote a diverse workplace, and we have overhauled our procurement process, looking at how we can reward companies that value diversity. We're doing a lot, and of course there's always a lot more to do. That brings me to Bill C-81.

Overall, we're very happy to see a bill of this nature, and we believe it's about time. The preceding was to let you know that we are not afraid of the bill. We're ready.

However, I'm worried that the bill is a bit heavy-handed. It also presents possibly significant administrative burdens, and I believe we'll run into some major issues in applying standards.

Additional feedback and reporting requirements in the bill would add a considerable burden, which is even more challenging when we consider the differences among airports. There are a lot of small airports that don't have the resources that we do. These airports would be much better off spending funds to install accessibility ramps than producing reports. For them, it's often one or the other.

This brings me to the proposed Canadian accessibility standards development organization. Do we really need this to do what's needed? My concern is duplication and redundancy with what other organizations are already doing in the built environment.

How can we leverage what already exists, rather than creating another body that will bring more costs and bureaucracy? An alternative would be to bring in organizations that are already doing accreditation. It could start with a general visit and not a compliance audit. For instance, we just got certified at YVR, the Vancouver airport, by the Rick Hansen Foundation.

I also agree that it's important to set standards and hold everyone accountable. Ultimately, of course, the way to ensure that is through fines. However, fines should be the last resort.

I'm co-chair of the Presidents Group, a network of business leaders in Vancouver committed to improving employment outcomes for people with disabilities in B.C. One reason the group was formed was to find less punitive ways to get organizations to comply. My question is, how much of a hard stance will we take on fines? Is there a grace period to implement the measures needed? If so, how long is it?

The reality is that there will always be areas in which we will be underperforming. We are never fully compliant. Nobody is. We're always evolving our buildings, so grandfathering is very much an issue. We're committed to getting it right, but the solutions are often expensive and time-consuming.

In conclusion, overall we support the bill and think it will go a long way to removing barriers and improving accessibility across Canada. I look forward to working with you to further improve our accessibility, and thank you for providing me with the opportunity to voice YVR's perspective today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much, sir.

Before we go on, I remind you to keep your pace a little bit slow. That would be great. I have not been very heavy-handed this session with the timing, so if you go over a little bit, it's not the end of the world. Just keep that in mind.

Next, from the Canadian Transportation Agency is Mr. Scott Streiner, Chair and Chief Executive Officer.

The next five minutes are all yours, sir.

[Scott Streiner, Chair and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Transportation Agency]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the committee for inviting me here today.

It's a pleasure to be here today to provide an overview of the Canadian Transportation Agency's (CTA) accessibility-related responsibilities and activities as part of the committee's hearings into Bill C-81, the proposed Accessible Canada Act.

The Canadian Transportation Agency, CTA, has been around since 1904. We are Canada's longest-standing independent expert tribunal and regulator. In 1988 our enabling legislation was amended to add accessible transportation as one of our core mandates. As the Supreme Court of Canada said in a 2007 ruling upholding one of our decisions, “Parliament charged the Agency with the public responsibility for assessing barriers [because the] Agency uniquely has the specialized expertise to balance the requirements of those with disabilities with the practical realities…of a federal transportation system.”

Ensuring that Canadians with disabilities are able to travel independently and with dignity is in the CTA's DNA. We all know that transportation services are integral to modern life whether we're going to visit family, see new places or conduct business. As the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities states, transportation services to which persons with disabilities have equal access “enable persons with disabilities to live independently and participate fully in all aspects of life”.

The CTA's vision is to make Canada's national transportation system the most accessible in the world. We know that this is an ambitious vision, but we believe that in a country whose fundamental values include equality and inclusion we should aspire to nothing less.

We're taking major steps to translate that vision into reality. Let me briefly highlight four examples.

First, in 2016, we established the CTA's centre of expertise for accessible transportation, which serves as the hub of activity within and beyond the CTA for all matters related to the removal of barriers to persons with disabilities in the national transportation system.

Our second action relates to regulation.

Following two years of intensive consultations with disability rights organizations and industry, we're drafting new accessible transportation regulations that will integrate two existing regulations and six voluntary codes into a single robust, binding and enforceable instrument. The consultative process included multiple discussions with our accessibility advisory committee, which brings together 19 disability rights groups plus representatives from the air, passenger rail, and interprovincial bus and ferry sectors. We hope to have the new accessible transportation regulations ready for publication in the Canada Gazette in early 2019.

Third, we've organized multi-stakeholder discussions, including a working group focused on the significant and growing challenges associated with the transportation and storage of wheelchairs and other mobility aids on aircraft. That working group's recommendations are expected to be ready by the spring.

Finally, together with our partners in Global Affairs Canada and Transport Canada, we're spearheading efforts to give accessible air travel more profile within the International Civil Aviation Organization, ICAO. One of our goals is make sure that accessible air travel figures prominently on ICAO's agenda during its triennial general conference next September in Montreal.

We're also getting ready to implement Bill C-81, should it be passed.

We're putting the pieces in place for the launch of a proactive education and compliance monitoring and enforcement program within 60 days of royal assent.

We're revising the standard wording that we apply to accessibility adjudications to reflect the language of Bill C-81 and we've held discussions with the other implementation bodies named in the bill to begin working toward coherent, well-aligned approaches to the delivery of our respective accessibility mandates.

Accessible transportation is a fundamental human right. The CTA is committed to ensuring that this right be realized in practice through clarity of purpose and concrete action.

Thank you for your attention. I look forward to answering your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much, sir.

Now from VIA Rail Canada, we have Yves Desjardins-Siciliano, President and Chief Executive Officer, and John-Nicolas Morello, Senior Legal Counsel, Legal and Corporative Affairs.

You have five minutes, sir.

[Yves Desjardins-Siciliano, President and Chief Executive Officer, VIA Rail Canada Inc.]

Good evening, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

Thank you for inviting VIA Rail—my colleague John-Nicolas Morello and me—to present our position on this ambitious bill and, if necessary, on accessibility.

VIA Rail did not wait for this bill to be introduced to serve more than 4.4 million passengers, many of whom have some kind of disability affecting their mobility, vision, hearing, and so forth. We offer the required services for inter-city transport in Canada that is accessible to everyone, from sea to sea. When one in seven Canadians has a disability, if we are to achieve a society without barriers, it is essential to provide access to efficient and safe transportation between cities, for those travelling on business, for family reasons, tourism or simply to enjoy Canada's bucolic landscapes.

Furthermore, not only are we confident we can meet the requirements of the proposed legislation, but we have been acting with the intention of doing what that act purports to do.

Indeed, inclusive and sustainable mobility is central to VIA Rail's mandate, which is to better serve Canadians.

We've taken action by anticipating the mobility needs of people with disabilities and increasing the space available to them over the past few years. More than 1,450 accessible spaces have been added on board our trains since 2014. At present our capacity to accommodate Canadians with disabilities is already six times greater than it was just a few years ago.

To ensure that our services go beyond what is already in place, thanks to the Government of Canada VIA Rail has invested more than $162 million since 2010 in the following areas: on our trains we just recently awarded a contract for $54 million to make 17 cars fully accessible on the oldest generation of VIA Rail trains, which cover the country from one ocean to the other all the way to Churchill, Manitoba; we've consulted groups in devising the new functionality that makes those cars accessible; and as well, again, thanks to budget 2018, we are in the midst of procuring a totally new fleet to serve the business corridor between Quebec City and Windsor, where we currently serve over 4.5 million Canadians. That fleet will be totally accessible.

I want to salute in this room today Bob Brown, a member of the Council of Canadians with Disabilities. He and his colleagues from the council and other organizations representing people with disabilities have met with VIA to set out the specifications required to adapt to their disabilities, and as well have been part of the visits we've made to manufacturers to ensure the product that is being designed meets those requirements.

Here in Ottawa over the last two years we've spent $20 million to retrofit the Ottawa station, which we want to see as a model of universal access not only here in VIA Rail's network but around the world. We are currently working with the Union Internationale des Chemins de fer to devise a way for people with blindness or other sight disabilities to find their way from their front door all the way to their train seat without the aid of other individuals, providing them not only with mobility but freedom.

The introduction of a continuous improvement process at VIA to ensure greater accessibility is part of our DNA, to use Scott Streiner's expression. We've already become, in our view, a world leader in accessibility. As we celebrate our 40th anniversary, as I said, we're just about to procure a new fleet that will be 21st century in terms of accessibility.

We've also proposed to build a dedicated infrastructure for VIA Rail services between Quebec City, Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto. That high-frequency rail network would also provide universal accessibility not only on its cars but at all of its stations.

Because it will be fully accessible and fully available to VIA Rail services, it will provide three times the number of frequencies that we have today on freight networks, making greater accessibility in a broader sense available to all Canadians.

Lastly, as an employer, VIA Rail understands the importance of integrating people with disabilities into our workforce. That is why, as president and CEO of Via Rail, my objectives include recruiting a certain number of persons with disabilities among our new hires. Right now, 3% of our employees have a disability. This year, we want to maintain that percentage.

In fact, among my performance objectives for 2018, I was aiming for more than 32% of employees from diversity communities, including persons with disabilities, and we are already at 42%!

I like to under-promise and over-deliver.

In other words, this year alone, VIA Rail has hired 12 new employees who have a disability.

In short, at VIA Rail, we recognize that we are an important pillar of inclusion and sustainable mobility, and that all Canadians cannot be truly equal unless they can fully enjoy their freedom as Canadians, not only in their thoughts, but also in their mobility.

That is why we are committed not just to meeting the objectives of this very important bill you are discussing today, but in fact to exceeding them.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

Up first for questions, we have MP Finley for six minutes, please.

[Diane Finley, Haldimand—Norfolk, CPC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Over the last few years, I spent about two of those years travelling across the country with the aid of at least a cane and often a walker or a wheelchair. One thing I noticed in particular was the dramatic difference in accessibility in different airports.

For example, here in Ottawa, if anyone tries to drop you off at the airport by car and then go in to get a wheelchair for you, the parking police come along to give you a ticket. If you go to Toronto, the wheelchairs are at the very back of the terminal, and it's the same deal. You're not allowed to stop and wait while somebody goes and gets your wheelchair.

In other places, the airlines say that the delivery of the service is up to them, and they'll come right to the curb and pick you up.

There's no consistency. Would this bill change that situation? If so, how?

[Scott Streiner]

Mr. Chair, perhaps I can provide an initial response.

The issue of wheelchair services is one that we at the Canadian Transportation Agency have seen crop up again and again. Of all the different issues around which we receive accessibility-related complaints, it's the most common topic.

Also, as I noted in my opening remarks, we recognize that the transportation of wheelchairs and other mobility devices on aircraft is becoming a more challenging issue. That's because there's a positive development, in that wheelchairs are becoming larger, more technologically complex, more customized and better at meeting the needs of the individual traveller, but that means it can sometimes be more challenging to transport them and to store them on aircraft. That's the reason we set up a multi-stakeholder working group to deal with this challenge.

The member asked about whether positive change is coming. What I can say is that the CTA has been working for several years now on its new accessible transportation regulations, which will include a section on the obligations of airports and airlines in respect of the provision of wheelchair services. Those provisions should help to ensure more consistent service delivery and a better quality of service delivery. I think we're confident, after two years of consultations and development, that these new regulations will help to make a positive difference in the area that you've identified as one of concern.

[Diane Finley]

It's totally inconsistent right now. You just never know what to expect.

Mr. Richmond, I don't know if you have any comments on that; I know that you've worked in many different airports around the world. If so, I welcome them.

Also, I'm wondering, because you did refer to smaller airports, what you anticipate would be the impact on these airports of the unfunded mandate that would be inherent in the passage of Bill C-81.

[Craig Richmond]

Thank you very much.

As Mr. Streiner said, it's a growing issue, especially as we have an aging population all over the world. It's not uncommon for us now to have requests for 50, 75, or 100 wheelchairs to meet airplanes from certain areas of the world. We have seen as many as 150 requests from one aircraft, which is more than all the wheelchairs we have in the airport.

We are working at the airport to try to grapple with this problem as well. In Vancouver, there are places where you can drop off or be picked up that are very accessible, with wheelchairs nearby.

I wanted to highlight my colleagues who are in smaller airports, but not because I don't think that they do a good job; in fact, I think in a lot of the smaller ones, it's much easier to do a good job. Over the past two decades, as I look at airports from coast to coast, they are much more accessible than they were in the past. Everybody has incorporated accessibility into their standards.

You're right, though: it is not as consistent as it might be across the country.

[Diane Finley]

What do you see as the financial impact of this unfunded mandate, particularly on smaller airports?

[Craig Richmond]

That's a good question, and that's why I raised it.

For the most part, I think that anybody who has built a new terminal—and most airports in Canada are new—have conformed to CSA-B651, which is a very good built environment code.

I don't know what will happen if airports are mandated to be standing at the curb with wheelchairs. That, to me, could be quite a serious cost for smaller airports, and large airports as well.

Also, I think that whatever we can do to make the reporting requirements under this bill as reasonable as possible would go a long way.... Many of the small airports in Canada run with a staff of 20 people. They do all kinds of jobs, and having to add more reports adds more cost and more difficulties for small airports.

I'm not worried so much at the large airport, but obviously we wouldn't want it to be onerous.

[Diane Finley]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Streiner, you said that you want Canada to be the best in the world, which suggests that we're not right now. I'd ask who is the best, and what do they do that's so terrific and to which we should aspire?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Give a very brief answer, please.

[Scott Streiner]

My very brief answer is that different countries are very successful in different areas. I didn't mean to suggest, Mr. Chair, that Canada isn't a leader in some respects in the area of accessibility, but there certainly are other countries that we can learn from.

We can learn from both the successes and the failures, for example, of a piece of legislation like the Americans with Disabilities Act. That legislation contributed to significant improvement in accessibility in some areas, but there were also some challenges with its implementation.

We try to learn from the lessons of every jurisdiction that has attempted to advance this issue.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

Now we go over to MP Hogg for six minutes.

[Gordie Hogg, South Surrey—White Rock, Lib.]

Thank you to all of the witnesses.

You all seem to have a positive outlook in terms of the directions you're taking and are feeling quite comfortable with that.

I'm following up on MP Finley's comment or question with respect to referencing. I was wondering how you were going to tell. She stole the question right out of my mouth when she asked about your statement that you wanted to be the best in the world, which clearly we'd like to be.

You've referenced some areas that we are worse in and some that we're better in. What are the areas we need to look at, and what impact would this bill have in terms of being able to turn those around?

[Scott Streiner]

In respect to transportation, we have a number of areas in Canada where we are clearly ahead of the curve. For example, we were one of the first countries to implement mandatory training requirements in the personnel training regulations that we currently have at the Canadian Transportation Agency. While those regulations aren't perfect, they drew the attention of service providers to the need to ensure not only that the built environment is accessible and not only that there's the right equipment, but that personnel are trained in order to interact appropriately with and provide services to people with disabilities.

In other areas we face some significant challenges. What I would say is that there are a few ingredients, I think, to advancing this agenda. One of them is to have a set of modern regulations that draw upon Canada's experience over the last 25 years since the CTA first got its accessibility mandate and, as I said in response to the member's question, on best practices in other countries. Our work on those regulations is well advanced.

Bill C-81 will reinforce our regulation-making power, but we already have that power, and it's pursuant to the current power that we've been working on these regulations.

Regulations by themselves are a start, but they're not enough. There are other ingredients required. We need a strong, proactive compliance assurance program. At the CTA, we've been working on creating a program that is risk-based so that we will target our efforts in those areas where the risk of non-compliance or the impact of non-compliance is highest. Bill C-81 adds to the CTA's compliance tool kit. It gives our compliance enforcement officers additional tools to get out there and to ensure that people are complying.

I think that the third leg, very briefly, is information. It's making sure that both persons with disabilities and service providers know what their rights and responsibilities are. In addition to a compliance program, the CTA is planning to undertake, should the bill be passed, a very proactive information program for those communities.

[Gordie Hogg]

I'm assuming that there is some type of concurrence around the world with respect to what best practices are so that we know what we're implementing.

If I can quickly go to Craig Richmond, I want to get it on the record to say hi to your dad, who was the Speaker of the House when I was in the legislature, and to your sister, who was my ministerial assistant for a number of years. Please pass along my best wishes to them.

[Craig Richmond]

Yes, sir.

[Gordie Hogg]

I haven't been able to find Valerie's number recently.

You made reference to thinking that going to legislation was maybe a bit premature, that there were a lot of processes by which we might look at changing and shifting accessibility inclusion, and I assume that you're talking about how we change the culture and how the culture starts to change.

Can you talk about the changes that have been made at YVR with respect to the culture, particularly in response to what happens with staff?

I know that in some areas I've talked to, the staff have been reluctant to respond to some of those initiatives. What is the process of the culture changing so that there's not a disparity between the culture, values and principles and how those are reflected in the legislation?

[Craig Richmond]

I'm not opposed to the legislation. As Mr. Streiner said, there's a lot of information out there. Compliance audits are very heavy-handed from the very beginning, and I just hope that it doesn't come across as heavy-handed, especially at airports that may be a little bit behind.

I think we also have to think about the fact that our building, for example, is the largest building in B.C., and it's constantly growing. We're going to need some grandfathering, because we can't constantly keep it up to the latest standards. We have that in many other aspects of the building, but not in terms of accessibility, because there hasn't been a standard before.

I think the culture is a good point. Something we're very proud of in Vancouver is the culture, and it all begins with empathy. We do a lot of training. Our employees are very encouraged, and about 80% of them have spent half of a day in a wheelchair. They also spend time with vision-blocking devices to see what that's like. I know that the airlines have the same kind of training. I think there is a tremendous amount of empathy for the passenger who is travelling with a disability.

Our culture goes back to the formation of the airport authority back in 1992. When I went there as a young person, I was always very impressed with the attention and care that everybody, from the airport to the airline, is trying to take for persons with disabilities.