Human Resources Committee on May 16th, 2016

[Jerry Amirault]

The detail has to start with the youth, seeing what the youths' attitude is.

I know in Nova Scotia they're starting with some video training. Their view of a fish plant maybe a bit dated. The workers themselves respond very positively to having a foreign worker mix in their population. They're members of the community. There are other aspects of it that the community gains by people coming in.

What we've done is change wage scales, looked at the needs. We would love to have people on shift work, but we do not have enough for one shift.

They have educational programs in the schools, orientation within the plants to try to get people through the initial stigma.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Okay. Let's talk about wages. Is a wage increase possible to make the positions more attractive to Canadian workers?

[Jerry Amirault]

The wages have gone up significantly. I say that—

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Can you give me a ballpark, where they were paid, say, five years ago, versus now?

[Jerry Amirault]

Again, I'll pick on Deer Island.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Sure.

[Jerry Amirault]

The prevailing wage in Deer Island is about $13.95, and I think the minimum wage in New Brunswick is $10 or $11. So it's significantly over that.

Across the region, I think in Shediac-Cap-Pelé, they're over $12 now. I know that one plant in P.E.I. paid another $900,000 in payroll, and it didn't make any difference, people were coming to work.

We're teaching our kids to be lawyers or doctors, or whatever. At the school level, we think we have to try to influence them. You need a lot of truck drivers. You need a lot of labourers to keep our economy.... There just isn't the critical mass in our populations with the out-migration and the lack of birth rate to fill these jobs.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you.

Can you just give me maybe a sentence or two on how you see the living arrangements for temporary foreign workers?

[Jerry Amirault]

In the smaller villages, some of the people have converted homes to have them in.

In a number of plants, not only Deer Island, they brought in accommodations and created a village for the foreign workers. I know there's one in Pictou. In all instances, they've accommodated them by allowing them to become part of the community. It isn't like an impression that there's 10 people living in a room. They're well-quartered. They're well looked after in the way we would treat any other workers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Moving on, Ms. Ashton, please.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you, Chair, I will be sharing my time with my colleague Jenny Kwan as well.

I want to thank our witnesses for coming in today, and I want to very much thank Dr. Tungohan and Mr. Santos De Leon for coming forward. We're concerned this study will not be spending enough time to understand the caregiver program and the level of exploitation that is taking place as part of this program.

I did want to zero in on some of the comments you already made, Doctor, particularly about the role of recruitment agencies. I'm wondering, given the concern that you've raised about potential exploitation, what do you hope to see from the Minister of Immigration or the Minister of Labour on this front in terms of support for caregivers?

[Ethel Tungohan]

I think one of the most important proposals being put on the table by caregiver advocates is, as I said, giving caregivers landed status upon arrival. If that isn't possible, one of the suggestions is to give sectoral specific work permits that aren't tied to their employers, whether that be employment agents, or whether that be families. It's having a caregiver visa. I think there's a lot of merit to this proposal because it also addresses Canadians' caregiving needs, while at the same time respecting workers' needs and not tying them in an abusive exploitative relationship.

I should also add that when it comes to the caregivers that we've spoken to, and Mr. De Leon's story testifies to that, if the working conditions are good, workers will stay. A lot of caregivers are happy to be in Canada, and they're happy to be providing care for Canadian families. Obviously we have to strengthen provincial labour and employment standards, as well, to make sure that their interests are protected.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much. I'm Jenny Kwan. I'm with the Immigration and Refugees Citizenship Committee.

I want to start off by saying it's a bit ironic in a way that this committee is dealing with this issue, and yet Minister McCallum has the issue referred to him in his mandate letter. With that being said, I would certainly like to ask the chair to pass on the information in the submission that's being received to our committee for examination as well.

On this question around abuse, Dr. Tungohan, I'm particularly interested in the work you have done. How rampant have you found the abuse to be with caregivers and particularly with the intermediary agency in dealing with the work in trying to refer caregivers to employment?

[Ethel Tungohan]

I would say that incidences of abuse are quite rampant. The fact is recruiters here oftentimes have existing relationships with recruiters in other countries. Recruiters in other countries charge caregivers illegal placement fees, but the Canadian government simply cannot enforce policies made in other countries. That's one issue.

Another issue, as Mr. De Leon's story shows, is the issue of charging workers fees that simply are illegal. Even if we do have laws against the charging of recruitment fees, these laws simply aren't enforced. As I've mentioned, this proposal to make the regulated companies into the employers of caregivers simply transfers the power of relationship and doesn't address the power imbalances facing caregivers and their employers.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

The Project Guardian proposal is ineffective in other words. Is that correct? What action should the government take? You talked about permitting and so if you can elaborate on that.

[Ethel Tungohan]

Sorry, Project Guardian?

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Basically it's bringing this intermediary agency to deal as an employer for live-in careworkers.

[Ethel Tungohan]

As I've mentioned, caregiver advocates support the provision of landed status upon arrival for caregivers, but if not that, then giving open work permits for caregivers as a caregiver visa that enables caregivers not to be tied to their employers, but also enables Canadians to have their caregiving needs met.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

On the 49,000 people who are in the backlog of those waiting, what is the time frame in which a family is waiting to be reunited with their loved ones?

[Ethel Tungohan]

Why don't we pass it on to Mr. De Leon?

How long have you been waiting for your papers to get processed?

[Ericson Santos De Leon]

I've been waiting for three years now because I applied in 2013 for my permanent residency and I just received the latest news dated February 18 that my son is medically inadmissible, but I received my CSQ from Quebec. I heard from that so I was a bit surprised by this.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

So for at least three years you've been here to take care of someone else's family and yet you're separated from your own family. So no irony there either, I guess, on this program.

On this question in terms of family members, some advocates propose the idea that on acceptance of your application to be a caregiver here your family would be allowed to come as well.

Can you share your thoughts on that?

[Ethel Tungohan]

How would you feel about a proposal if your family comes with you immediately upon arrival in Canada?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Briefly, please. Sorry.

[Ericson Santos De Leon]

For sure it will be a big asset if my family comes here. We're both young and we're willing to share our knowledge and talents to share in the community here in Canada.