Evidence of meeting #125 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was bereavement.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Moire Stevenson  Psychologist, MAB-Mackay Rehabilitation Centre, As an Individual
Susan Cadell  Professor, School of Social Work, Renison University College, University of Waterloo, As an Individual
Karima Joy  Ph.D. Candidate, Dalla Lana School of Public Health, Social and Behavioural Health Sciences, University of Toronto, As an Individual
Mary Ellen Macdonald  Associate Professor, Pediatric Palliative Care Research Program, McGill University, As an Individual
Alexandra Lihou  Registered Clinical Counsellor, Reproductive Mental Health Program, Royal Columbian Hospital, Fraser Health
Blake Richards  Banff—Airdrie, CPC
Elizabeth Cahill  Committee Researcher
Matthew Blackshaw  Committee Researcher
Gordie Hogg  South Surrey—White Rock, Lib.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Thank you.

Ms. Macdonald, thanks for your testimony. How can we provide universal, flexible and individualized supports for those experiencing grief, without medicalizing grief or inadvertently creating a hierarchy of types of grief?

9:40 a.m.

Associate Professor, Pediatric Palliative Care Research Program, McGill University, As an Individual

Dr. Mary Ellen Macdonald

That's a great question, and a really fabulous example, historically, is looking at what happened with maternity benefits.

Maternity, pregnancy, has kind of swung from something that happened with midwives to something that happened in hospital to something that's happening with midwives.

It was hyper-medicalized at one point, but now we don't think of maternity benefits as a medicalizing kind of benefit. It's a right for mothers and fathers, so I think that would be the best kind of historic example to think of: how we should be thinking about grief as just part of life. It's just part of something that happens to people, and they need support for it.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Thank you.

Ms. Joy and Ms. Cadell, I want to talk to you just about the EI benefits and the flexibility of benefits, and how you see as a government we can maybe make benefits more flexible with respect to, for example, somebody going back to work and needing time. I mentioned a different example to the panel before. When my dad passed away, it really hit me six months after the fact. That's when I had the most difficult time—not immediately.

Also, I just want to throw in that we've certainly learned in the study that even though some people need to go back to work, the workplace seems at times to be the most insensitive place for people going back.

Can you just give us your comments on how, if you could wave a magic wand, you'd change that EI system and provide more support?

Ms. Joy, maybe you could start.

9:40 a.m.

Ph.D. Candidate, Dalla Lana School of Public Health, Social and Behavioural Health Sciences, University of Toronto, As an Individual

Karima Joy

I see the benefits of going through EI, but again my caution is around people who aren't eligible. We are just further marginalizing people who would then have to potentially choose between their grief and poverty. A lot of people in my generation are contract workers and ineligible for EI, so that's something I would caution against. In my dream world, we would find a way to have some kind of benefit for those who don't qualify as well.

What was the second part of your question?

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

About the workplace—

9:45 a.m.

Ph.D. Candidate, Dalla Lana School of Public Health, Social and Behavioural Health Sciences, University of Toronto, As an Individual

Karima Joy

It was about the workplace, yes, and facilitating the transition back to work with flexibility. I think that's been brought up before, but yes, I support that.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Thank you. Quickly, Ms. Cadell, could you comment?

9:45 a.m.

Professor, School of Social Work, Renison University College, University of Waterloo, As an Individual

Dr. Susan Cadell

Since you've given me a magic wand, I would do a lot of public education that would include workplaces, so that everybody would have more knowledge about both death literacy and grief literacy, and that there would be an element of choice. If I love my workplace and I do find it supportive, I can go back. Maybe I can go back in a graduated fashion, but I can also take time when I need it, when it hits me months or years later. I've had people in support groups who come for the first time four years after the death to seek support. The timeline is so variable, so I would build that kind of flexibility into my magic system.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Thank you.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Thank you.

Madame Sansoucy is next, please.

November 20th, 2018 / 9:45 a.m.

NDP

Brigitte Sansoucy NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses.

Your contribution is essential to our committee's discussion.

With all due respect to my colleague Mr. Richards' motion, I also want to table a motion that doesn't affect motion M-110. However, I think that my motion is related to all our work.

My motion is as follows:

That Shawn Bayes, Executive Director of The Elizabeth Fry Society of Greater Vancouver, be asked to appear before the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities on the current eligibility rules and regional variations in service delivery which result in some of Canada's most vulnerable and poorest children being further materially deprived and marginalized.

I sincerely hope that the debate on this motion won't lead to the same outcome as the previous motion.

I could simply share my speaking time right now with Ms. Bayes, who is here and who has travelled from Vancouver to Ottawa. You can determine whether she should be given 15 or 30 minutes.

I know that we have a busy schedule. However, having heard her, I sincerely believe that her input is important to our committee's work.

Thank you.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Thank you.

Mr. Ruimy is next, please.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

Dan Ruimy Liberal Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC

I'd like to thank our colleague for putting through a motion. However, we have witnesses here and we have very limited time, so I move that we adjourn the debate and address our witnesses.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

All those in favour of adjourning the debate?

9:45 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Madame Sansoucy, you have five minutes and 28 seconds left if you choose to use that time.

9:45 a.m.

NDP

Brigitte Sansoucy NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Thank you.

It's a shame that we always end up choosing to not vote. I think that we must have the courage to vote, and that we shouldn't always choose to not vote.

I want you to elaborate on one of your recommendations.

I gather that, in your opinion, the employment insurance program wasn't really a reliable safety net for bereaved families.

We know that only 40% of contributors and 34% of women are currently eligible for employment insurance, which entitles them to 55% of their income. They must have worked enough hours to qualify. The Cormier family suggested 12 weeks. Earlier, Ms. Lihou spoke of 15 to 20 weeks.

In terms of paid leave for bereaved people, should we move in the direction of the English system, which grants it unconditionally? Based on your recommendation, I gather that we could also ensure that this type of leave isn't included in the employment insurance program since many parents aren't eligible for the leave.

9:50 a.m.

Ph.D. Candidate, Dalla Lana School of Public Health, Social and Behavioural Health Sciences, University of Toronto, As an Individual

Karima Joy

That's a hard question. From what I'm understanding, you're asking about EI or going with a different system that might mean that everybody would be eligible. I would prefer that everyone be eligible, but I understand that the money is already in place with EI. That's the thing. I don't know how to answer that fully.

I wish more people would have access to the support they need.

9:50 a.m.

NDP

Brigitte Sansoucy NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Okay.

Do you have anything to add? No?

I think that you still answered the question.

We'll need to make the choice when we issue our recommendations. We must ensure that the necessary funds are invested so that all bereaved parents have unconditional access. I hope that this will be part of our recommendations.

My next question is for Ms. Stevenson.

In your article, you described the difficulties faced by parents in the first year of bereavement. You mentioned the website, and you also have specific training for people who need to deal with bereaved people.

I want to hear what you have to say about this. What could constitute specific training for Service Canada officers? How could we modify the current Internet platform to facilitate the process for bereaved parents? Based on your comments, I gather that this would result in major improvements in their daily lives in terms of the grief that they're experiencing.

9:50 a.m.

Psychologist, MAB-Mackay Rehabilitation Centre, As an Individual

Dr. Moire Stevenson

I hear that you're talking about two potential users: the parents and the professionals working with the parents.

I think we're in a time when technology is our friend here. In the work that we did with Le Phare, everything was based on the web. Professionals, for example, were given a password, and then they had access to various training modules based on the existing research. It was very much evidence-based. Again, parents consulted on the program itself. When it comes to parents, it could have a similar format, but obviously I don't see the point of having a password. It should be as readily accessible as possible.

The pre-existing information on the web needs to be updated and in line with what we know. The reason I read that comment from the EAP website is that when I put my feet in the shoes of a bereaved parent and I read a statement like that, I find it upsetting. I think we need to take a look at what exists and then create something using the technology we have that's easily accessible for people across Canada, be it families or professionals.

I will also underline that we should offer something to bereaved siblings as well. They're very much underserviced when we talk about bereavement services. Little exists for them, and when we are providing support to bereaved siblings it's often included within the larger program for bereaved children. They're with people who are experiencing the loss of parents, grandparents, etc. I think it could easily be done, and I think we should be targeting the two users: the families and the professionals.

9:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Thank you very much.

MP Hogg is next, please.

9:50 a.m.

Gordie Hogg South Surrey—White Rock, Lib.

Thank you, and I want to thank Mr. Richards for bringing this issue before us. It's certainly been both an emotional experience and an intellectual experience going through this and all the testimony that we've received over a period of time. I've been closely connected with a number of parents in my community who have gone through similar issues and different experiences. The subjectivity that you refer to is certainly part of my experience as well.

I also appreciate Mr. Richards' sense of urgency in wanting to move this ahead. I think we all certainly feel that. Having heard the testimony again, both the experiential and the research, I share your sense of urgency. I don't want the notion of taking that away to imply in any way that there's any sense from me, and I'm sure from my colleagues, that we don't want this to move forward as quickly as we can to put in place practices, procedures and empathetic, reasoned responses to people in need.

With the procedural perspective, I keep thinking about Steven Pinker and Abraham Lincoln talking about “the better angels of our nature”. How do we find and want to reflect that? As Canadians, we want to reflect the values that you've highlighted for us as well as many of the values that have come to us through many parents talking about their experiences—and not just parents, but extended family members. As I say, it has torn me and I'm sure torn many of us in many ways, with the experiences that we have in our communities and the experiences that we have individually with these types of death.

There have been a lot of specific suggestions that have come out, and I again sense the urgency and the desire to get to a place where we have a much better responsive, caring system in our country. Some reference has been made to other countries, other jurisdictions.

Is there anything out there around the world that is helpful? Each of you has made different references to different specifics. Is there something that we can adapt, some best practices? Each of you has made different references to things. Are there some things that become...?

I guess I'm looking for the values and then the principles that roll out of those that can then be interpreted into legislation, practice and policy. I think that we need to ensure that we start to invest in some of those and some of the values that we see as Canadians and as caring people.

This is to any of you who like to respond to it.

9:55 a.m.

Professor, School of Social Work, Renison University College, University of Waterloo, As an Individual

Dr. Susan Cadell

It's not specific to parents, but it's specific to grief and this idea of grief literacy.

Scotland is making enormous advances in terms of public education and grief literacy. They have festivals. I'm not sure if it was in Scotland or Great Britain where this whole idea of death cafés began. In Scotland, they're taking that farther and they have week-long festivals. They have dinners called “to absent friends”, which are different from a death café.

I'm not sure if you've heard of death cafés, but they are public events where people come and talk about death, and it's not necessarily specific to their own grief experience. “To absent friends” are organized dinners in small ways where people bring their own personal stories and celebrate their bonds to the specific people who have died.

They've recently introduced legislation about supporting families financially in terms of funeral costs, because funerals are exorbitantly expensive.

I would direct your attention to Scotland and would be happy to help provide some of those resources in a brief to the committee.

9:55 a.m.

Associate Professor, Pediatric Palliative Care Research Program, McGill University, As an Individual

Dr. Mary Ellen Macdonald

I will add to what Professor Cadell was saying by mentioning the movement called “compassionate communities”. Ottawa has signed on to this movement as a city. It's a movement that was started in the public health palliative care community. It is focused on bringing an awareness of life's issues and life's traumas at the community level, the grassroots level.

There are a number of international cities that have signed on to this compassionate communities movement. There's a charter. As a city or a community, you can follow the charter, sign on and try to kind of create more grassroots compassion at your library, at your local cinema or at your local bookstore to bring this idea of grief literacy to the grassroots community members.

That would be another level. Ottawa has signed on to this charter. It might be a great place to start.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Thank you.

MP Morrissey is next, please.