Evidence of meeting #135 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was workers.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gordie Hogg  South Surrey—White Rock, Lib.
Elisha Ram  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Natasha Kim  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic and Program Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Stephen Johnson  Director General, Labour Market Information Directorate, Department of Employment and Social Development

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Thank you very much, Mr. Ram.

Next, I believe we have Natasha Kim, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic and Program Policy.

The next 10 minutes are all yours.

12:20 p.m.

Natasha Kim Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic and Program Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for inviting IRCC to speak to the committee as part of the committee's study.

With an aging population that is contributing to more workers leaving the workforce every year than entering it, immigration will be a key source for population and labour force growth in the coming years. It will account for up to 80% of labour force growth by 2031.

At IRCC, we've certainly heard from many sectors about the challenges they're facing in terms of meeting the need for skilled labour to grow their businesses, improve exports and create more jobs. In addition to strategies for enhancing the participation of the domestic workforce, IRCC does recognize that new immigration will be an important component to meeting this need.

This is why the government's multi-year levels plan, which sets the number of permanent residents that Canada will accept every year, plans for year-over-year growth, with up to 350,000 new permanent resident admissions by 2021.

In addition to meeting Canada's commitments to family reunification and our humanitarian obligations, a key part of our levels plan is the emphasis it places on economic immigration. Nearly 60% of the 2019-21 multi-year levels plan is devoted to immigrants in the economic stream. The number of planned economic immigrants has grown almost 20% over the last three years.

Ontario, and in particular the GTA and the GTHA, receives the greatest share of permanent immigration overall, across all of these categories. In 2018, Toronto alone received over 106,000 new permanent residents, or about one third of all permanent resident admissions last year. Over 61,000—or about 60%—of these were permanent residents in the economic category. In addition to permanent residents, over 70,000 work permits were issued to migrant workers destined to Toronto in 2018 to work on a temporary basis.

Against that backdrop, I'd like to turn to an overview of some of our permanent economic immigration programs that may be of interest to this committee.

First, I understand the committee is interested in the Atlantic immigration pilot or, as we call it, AIP, and whether the lessons we're learning there could be applied to the greater Toronto and Hamilton area.

The AIP was launched in 2017 and seeks to address particular demographic challenges that have been faced in the Atlantic region. This included the challenge of attracting and retaining immigrants to that region. Prior to the launch of the pilot, retention of immigrants in the Atlantic provinces was the lowest nationwide. It ranged from 16% to 68%, compared to the national average of 86% or the 91% retention rate in Ontario.

Therefore, a key focus of the pilot has been how to integrate newcomers early on in the process. This includes requiring every applicant to have, in addition to a job offer, an individualized settlement plan and the endorsement of their province. While the pilot is employer-driven, in the sense of employers being the ones to identify and recruit candidates who can permanently fill jobs in the region, employers are also required to play a stronger role in the settlement and integration of recruited workers and their families in the Atlantic region.

It's important to note that, in comparison, Ontario does not face the same challenges in attracting and retaining immigrants as the Atlantic region. As noted earlier, it receives the most new immigrants on a yearly basis, has a retention rate of over 90%, and also receives secondary migration from other provinces.

However, there are other existing economic immigration programs that can help respond to labour needs and may be of interest to the committee. In the brief time I have available, I'll talk about just two.

First, there are our federal express entry programs, which can meet the need for skilled workers in the construction industry at the national occupational code or NOC levels O, A and B. This includes construction managers and supervisors, carpenters, masonry workers and welders, as well as those in the electrical trades. Under our federal skilled trades program, we have targeted draws for skilled trade workers under express entry. Using express entry, we provide points. Points are given for job offers where they are available, as well as for Canadian work or study experience. That allows more temporary foreign workers who are already here to then transition to permanent residents.

The second program I'll highlight is the provincial nominee program, which allows provinces and territories to address labour market needs, such as those in construction, that are more regional than national in nature. While our federal programs often seek to balance needs across the country and in different parts of our economy, the provincial nominee program enables provinces and territories to develop their own streams that are more employer-driven in order to address needs in the in-demand sectors and occupations.

For example, in 2017, Ontario introduced an in-demand skills stream to allow workers with permanent job offers in high-demand occupations, including those in the construction sector, to become permanent residents. Ontario also has a skilled worker stream that is available to workers with at least one year of cumulative paid full-time work experience in a skilled trade. This includes those in the industrial, electrical and construction trades, as well as in the maintenance and equipment operations trades.

In closing, Mr. Chair, I think it's important to note that unlike the temporary foreign worker program or temporary immigration, which are focused primarily on filling a certain job vacancy, permanent economic immigration does take a broader perspective. This means that, in addition to responding to labour market needs that may be present, we also look at indicators of an economic immigrant's ability to establish and adapt to a changing economy in the longer term. This often means looking at such attributes as language ability, education and work experience, and it often also includes their ability to have full-time year-long employment rather than seasonal work.

Those are some considerations that we take into account when we think about permanent economic immigration as opposed to filling job vacancies on a temporary basis.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. If there are any questions, we're happy to answer them.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Thank you very much.

Up first for questions is MP Barlow.

Go ahead, please.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate the department's being here to address some of these issues. Certainly your comments have highlighted many of the things we have seen over the last several years. We've undervalued a lot of these trades or jobs that are actually viable careers, well-paying careers, and this is something that not only impacts the GTA but goes across Canada.

I was surprised by that number, that one third of immigrants end up in Toronto. Obviously, they haven't seen the other beautiful parts of the country where their chances of getting a good job are even better. We'll address attracting some of those people to rural constituencies at another time, but I was surprised by the scope of that number. That's substantial, for sure.

I have a quick question before I get into some of the other issues you brought up. I am just curious. I know that in 2013 or 2014, when we were in government, there was a study done at this committee, I believe, showing that more than half of Canadians who go through an apprenticeship program don't actually finish it, for various reasons. We did put in some programs, including the apprenticeship loan program. I think it was $4,000 per term of study, and I know there are some other programs there as well.

Have some of those programs had an impact? I haven't seen updated numbers. Have they helped address some of the shortfall that we saw in Canadians finishing their apprenticeship programs?

12:25 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Elisha Ram

It's true that the low rate of completion is an issue in apprenticeships. However, I think it's important to remember that completion, by itself, is not the only metric, or even the most important metric, when it comes to whether apprenticeship is a useful pathway to employment. When we talk to people about why they pursue apprenticeships and why they do or don't complete them, we hear about a variety of factors that affect those decisions. In many cases, people can find and keep good, well-paying careers even if they don't finish their apprenticeships.

What's important about the apprenticeship is that it serves as a pathway to get people into the trades. It provides them with both a skill and some work experience that they can rely on, but then it's important that they also make their own choices about exactly where they want to take it.

We have introduced a number of programs, including various financial and non-financial supports to help young Canadians through the apprenticeship process. Those include work we've been doing with the provinces and territories that have the policy lead for the skilled trades, and we have seen more Canadians actually progress all the way through their apprenticeships. I don't think the job is done on that, but at the same time I think it's also important that we simply help more Canadians see trades as a valid career and begin to pursue one even if ultimately they don't finish their apprenticeship.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB

Yes, and maybe it's another resolution that we can have out of this committee, but I think one thing that we absolutely have to do is communicate with provincial governments to include trades in their education curriculum. I have a composite high school in my riding that's actually thinking of closing that portion of the high school, which is carpentry, welding.... I think that is absolutely the wrong direction to go in.

We have students who are academically very strong and who at a very young age say they want to go into welding, but the teachers say, “Oh, you're too smart for that.” If they only knew that they were going to be making a six-figure salary when they're done, I think they would have a different perspective. If we want to change the perception of how these trades and careers can be valued, I think it starts at a different place from where we are here. I'm hoping that we can work at the provincial level with the school curriculum to bring these programs back to even the junior high level, I would say, before we even start talking about high school.

There's another question I wanted to ask. You talked about express entry, Ms. Kim. One thing with regard to express entry that is important.... I think we all understand that we need to find a permanent solution to a permanent problem, and a temporary foreign worker isn't it. Nobody comes here for two years and then just wants to go home. They are coming here as a pathway to Canadian citizenship. One thing about express entry is that it ensures that when new Canadians or immigrants come to Canada, they know they have a job waiting for them. I think that is something we can't lose sight of. Whatever resolutions or recommendations come through this study, we need to ensure that when they come to Canada, they know they're going to have a job, wherever that may be in the country. I know we're focused on the GTA here.

Is it an option to simply, through the express entry program, take a look at the NOC codes and make some adjustments there in terms of the points system to maybe expand that a little to make it a bit easier? I don't want to have a program where we'll just allow immigrants to come to Canada and not have a job waiting for them or not have direction on where they can go. I think it's easier for them to get lost if they don't have a purpose and don't have something that they can plant roots in somewhere. I'm wondering if you can comment on the NOC codes portion of the express entry program.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

You have about 30 seconds, please.

12:30 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic and Program Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Natasha Kim

I'm happy to. Express entry isn't actually NOC-based. It's not occupation-based. It balances different factors that have been shown to contribute to the longer-term success of economic immigrants. They include language ability, education and level of education, whether or not there's a sibling in Canada—there are extra points for that—work experience and then, of course, job offers. Depending on the type of job offer, there is a different number of points you can receive. This also actually manages a portion of the provincial nominee program. Provinces are able to use the express entry system to identify where there could be candidates who could fill particular job needs in those jurisdictions.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Thank you.

MP Long, please.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and good afternoon to all my colleagues.

Thanks to our witnesses for their very interesting presentations.

My riding is Saint John—Rothesay, in southern New Brunswick. It's a very industrial riding. We have some big industrial employers. Some of those employers are undertaking great initiatives with respect to apprenticeship and apprenticeship training, in particular initiatives for women in that training.

With respect to post-secondary education, I think our government has come forth and provided a range of supports specifically for apprentices, including those through the apprenticeship completion grant, the apprenticeship incentive grant for women, and further initiatives announced in budget 2018.

Can you speak to me, please, about the impact of these supports on apprenticeship completion rates, Mr. Ram? What impact are you seeing?

12:35 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Elisha Ram

As noted earlier, apprenticeship completion is important. We do want to see more Canadians enter and complete their apprenticeships. I know that it is the same goal for provinces, territories and many employers as well.

At the same time, an apprenticeship is a journey. It's going to be a little different for every individual, and there may be a very valid reason why someone may not complete their apprenticeship.

Anecdotally, many people tell us that they can get a very good job after two or three years in an apprenticeship program. They don't feel that they need to go all the way to completion. The value of completing an apprenticeship, particularly in the Red Seal trades, is that it makes you much more mobile. Through the work we've been doing with the provinces and territories, we know that if you have completed your apprenticeship and have become a journeyperson in a Red Seal trade, you can pretty much take that qualification anywhere in Canada. That makes you more mobile. That potential allows you to be more resilient to economic changes and pursue opportunities not just in your home province or your home region.

We would like to see more Canadians have those opportunities. I think we've shown that the availability of financial and non-financial support is an important consideration for apprentices, and more of them do complete. However, there are equally important factors, including the work environment, the availability of other economic opportunities and family circumstances as well.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

I would agree with Mr. Barlow, my friend and colleague across the way, that there are wonderful job opportunities, wonderful long-lasting career job opportunities, for people who get into the trades, in particular for women. As I said, in my riding the lack of women entering over the last 10 years, let's say, is staggering.

Has the department conducted any evaluations or obtained any more data that it could share with us with respect to women in trades, such as whether it's increasing or not? Do you have any data, or is the department doing anything on that?

12:35 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Elisha Ram

Obviously, that's an area in which we've been doing a lot of work. We would like to see more women enter and stay in the trades.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

But do you have anything that shows, for instance, that in 2006 there was this and in 2016 there was that? Are you seeing trends?

Can you elaborate on that, Mr. Johnson?

12:35 p.m.

Stephen Johnson Director General, Labour Market Information Directorate, Department of Employment and Social Development

I can't necessarily speak to the trends, but certainly we can get back to the committee on this. I have some notes here saying that in Toronto and Hamilton, the share of women in construction was about 14.5%, which was higher than for Ontario as a whole.

So we have some of those statistics.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

But you don't have anything to compare it with where it was five years previous.

12:35 p.m.

Director General, Labour Market Information Directorate, Department of Employment and Social Development

Stephen Johnson

This is just a point in time. There would be other data points.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

What point in time is that?

12:35 p.m.

Director General, Labour Market Information Directorate, Department of Employment and Social Development

Stephen Johnson

This one here is for 2018.

The BuildForce organization reports, which the department provides funding to through the sectoral initiatives program, would also include some of the breakdown in the information that they have. They update those. There is information at different frequencies and different levels, at either the provincial level or the sub-provincial level, that would give you a notion of the trends and improvements. We've seen improvements globally, but it's still significantly short of the approximately 50% of the labour force that women make up.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Thank you very much.

There's one thing I want to get on the record, too, in response to Mr. Barlow's earlier comments on temporary foreign workers. Increased funds for inspections and integrity were the result of recommendations from the Auditor General's report. That's number one. We know that inspections and integrity measures, with the greatest respect, weren't present under the previous Conservative government. We saw scenarios like the HD Mining fiasco—

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB

Yes, they were, Wayne—

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Hold on. No interruptions.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

—that saw a B.C. mining company approved to bring in 450 foreign miners, and speaking Mandarin was a condition of employment. RBC brought in 400 temporary workers to train offshore employees. Integrity is vital with the program so that Canadians have trust and confidence in it.

Ms. Kim, can you elaborate on the changes in what we have done to ensure that Canadians have faith in the temporary foreign worker program?

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

I'm afraid he has not left you very much time—about 20 or 30 seconds, please.

12:35 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Elisha Ram

Maybe I can take that question.

Absolutely, inspection and integrity are important parts of the TFW program. We're trying to balance a variety of different considerations. Yes, we want employers to have access to labour, but we have to make sure that Canadians are not being disadvantaged as a consequence and that the people we are bringing over receive the same treatment and the same good working conditions that Canadians do. Integrity is a key piece of that.