Human Resources Committee on Feb. 19th, 2019

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Thank you.

I just want to address something. When you were talking to Mr. Morrissey, you mentioned how sometimes we need to be on the ground with constituents or stakeholders or that type of thing, and I would actually argue that we should be doing that all the time, every time we are in our riding.

I think if we did a lot more of that, or more members of Parliament did that, we would see how legislation like Bill C-69 is actually very detrimental to a lot of the ridings in Canada, coast to coast; it doesn't matter where. I think being able to see the work that is done and what Canadians are doing and how they're putting food on their table.... For example, the oil industry uses tons of different trades.

It's interesting for me...and we've discussed this before in this committee, when we studied youth employment. Being younger, I do fall in the millennial generation, and where I'm from, going into the trades is encouraged, because they are high-paying jobs. Kids are encouraged to get a job at a shop sweeping floors, which turns into something else, whether it's mechanics or welding or carpentry, whatever it is. That's encouraged where I am, in my part and region of Canada.

The second thing I want to touch on is that you made mention of destigmatizing the trades, and it's been talked about a couple of times. How do we change the perception and destigmatize the trades, when your leader, the Prime Minister, makes a comment about a gender-based analysis for rural construction workers? How does that help promote women, promote men, young boys, whoever it is, into those trades, when they hear comments like that from the top of the country, the leader of the country saying things like that? I've had many constituents contact me, very upset and offended by that statement, because that's not who they are. These are construction workers who are going into places like rural Saskatchewan or Manitoba and working on roads, or doing infrastructure on bridges or ferries or whatever it is.

I'm just wondering how we destigmatize that, when it's coming from the top of the top in Ottawa.

[Peter Fonseca, Liberal, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Mrs. Falk, thank you very much.

The main thing we can agree on—and I believe with all the members—is that the most important thing we can do is to be on the ground and to visit those businesses, visit homes, visit our constituents, and have the opportunity—the privilege that we have—to travel from coast to coast to coast to see other communities. I think it's the number one priority in our being able to do our job here in Ottawa.

I'm very proud of the Prime Minister, who has gone coast to coast to coast and has spoken to our youth, spoken to our seniors, met with indigenous men and women, old, young—it doesn't matter who. You will find that our Prime Minister is out. Every day that he is not here in Parliament, he is out on the road speaking to Canadians. He is always out there. You will see him every single day, and he answers every single question. He is—

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

I will actually argue about that with you, because he doesn't.

There was a young woman in Regina, at a town hall, who was very offended because she was a young woman in the construction industry working in rural Canada and he totally—

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

That's right.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

—didn't answer the question. He glazed over it and went on. First of all, that isn't feminism, because he isn't addressing her question. She is a woman who is breaking way in these trades that a lot of women don't go into for whatever reason, whether it's personal choice or they're not encouraged or whatnot.

I think that is something that needs to be taken into consideration if we're trying to change the culture of something like the trades. Every action, every statement, every word that comes out of this place has a reaction, whether positive or negative, whether we see it or not.

I think it is important not to turn a blind eye to something like that, especially because I think it is very important to your motion. Women bring something different that men can't bring to the table, just in the way we're wired and created, so I think we shouldn't just glaze over things. Sometimes when we do make mistakes, we just need to say, “Oh, I'm sorry” and move on.

How much time do I have?

[Peter Fonseca, Liberal, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Should I answer that, Mrs. Falk?

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

No, that's okay. I just wanted to make a statement, being the woman at the table today.

I know you talked about—or it has been talked about—the possibility of getting rid of LMIAs and TFWs. How would we achieve that? We do have a shortage in every.... It's not just in construction; it's in fast food or wherever. A lot of people are utilizing child caregivers, utilizing the LMIA and TFW program. I would argue that a lot of those people who come to Canada with an LMIA have the intention of staying, bringing their family and being incorporated into Canadian society. What is an alternative if we move away from that program?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

You have about 30 seconds.

[Peter Fonseca, Liberal, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Mrs. Falk, first off, it's been great seeing the Prime Minister being on job sites and getting up there, rolling up his sleeves, speaking to women and men construction workers and talking about the importance of this work. That's on the Prime Minister.

With regard to the LMIA and TFW program, I'm not saying it's either/or. What I am saying is that what is not there right now is a model to be able to provide for those who want to come in, as well as for employers, organized labour and others who would like some permanent residency pathway to citizenship for these workers. That doesn't exist today, the same way it didn't exist in the Atlantic before the Atlantic model.

I'm asking, as part of filling that gap, to bring in a model that will help. It will be multipronged.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

That's a model to bring in for PR, basically, permanent residency. That's what you're saying.

[Peter Fonseca, Liberal, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

That's right. Someone would come in as a permanent resident on the way to immigration, although—

Yes, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Sorry, but that's time.

Now up for six minutes is Mr. Ruimy.

[Dan Ruimy, Liberal, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Thank you. I'll be sharing my time with PS Adam Vaughan.

Before I hand it over, I just want to make a comment on how I think this is an appropriate motion. When we look at Canada, one in six Canadians is a senior. In the next 15 to 20 years, it's going to be one in four. In the next four years, five million Canadians are going to retire. We have the second-oldest workforce in the world. We need to find pathways to citizenship, or else we're not going to be able to build things. That's why this is so critically important. That's why I'm looking forward to moving forward with this study.

Thank you for being here today. I'm going to pass my time on to Mr. Vaughan.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

There are a couple of things.

One of the issues we're hearing about as we work with municipalities on the infrastructure program is that, even though the 10-year program has $181 billion committed—$19 billion of which has gone out the door, which is a lot more than 6%, and even more when you add the gas tax of $2 billion a year and the $5.7 billion on housing—we know that the money is allotted when receipts are received from municipalities.

In other words, we'll grant a $6-million construction approval to a municipality, but if they can't get workers to build it, we don't pay the bills until the bills go out. The money stays in the treasury until such time as a municipality submits a bill. If municipalities aren't getting workers, the project stalls. In other words, the $6 million is still going to be spent, but it won't be spent building stuff until the workers arrive.

How often have you heard about municipalities not being able to find workers and therefore not being able to invoice the federal government for money we've committed to them?

[Peter Fonseca, Liberal, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

I hear about it every day. We hear it from those who are out there, who are not going to be able to get to their next job because they are just not going to have the labour force to do that. From municipalities, we hear that they need public transportation infrastructure built. They need—again, going back, and sometimes it's not sexy—the stuff that's underground, the pipes and sewers. And they need affordable housing. It is a big stressor today, especially in the GTHA. To get that built, we need a bigger workforce, because they're working on all these other important projects, but the municipality can move only as fast as the labour it has.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

I was in Woodstock, a small community in southwestern Ontario, which has three co-investment fund projects under construction right now. I was talking to the construction workers, who said that most of their friends are being sucked into Toronto, where the wages are higher because the housing market is so much more intense. The mayor of Woodstock was saying that the smaller communities, in particular, cannot overbid the big cities, which are drawing in labour from the smaller communities. This is also resulting in delays for smaller communities.

In other words, if you don't solve the problem in Toronto, it's having a ripple effect into smaller communities where they can't pool the labour force to get their infrastructure programs, so you're hearing about how far workers have to come into Toronto to get the good wages that are on offer.

[Peter Fonseca, Liberal, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Well, I believe that in construction, for the most part, they're all pretty good wages. Again, they're family-sustaining types of jobs.

I can see how the magnet of the GTHA is pulling in workers, and how it would be difficult for some of our towns, villages and not-so-urban areas to keep that labour pull, and they may be coming in. Being able to stop the challenge posed by municipalities that want to get these projects completed, by adding and bringing in more labour, would be an opportunity.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

It's the same in Alberta. Legions of construction workers leave Atlantic Canada to work in Alberta. It means that Atlantic Canada has a problem holding on to its labourers, which means that executing its infrastructure program becomes more costly and more difficult. The same thing is happening in Ontario.

There's another issue we're hearing about. I got a call from the mayor of North Bay, who said, “I know that my member of the provincial parliament doesn't like these border crossers, but are there any labourers there? We need to build a school.” So you have smaller communities demanding that immigration patterns fit their labour markets, but we're not providing that labour service.

What are we doing to specifically target and upgrade the point system so that instead of allowing doctors quick entry into the country, we allow labourers, who are needed, to come in with the skills they have to go to work immediately? Have we looked at changing the point system so that, instead of prioritizing Ph.D.s and nuclear physicists or whatever, we're actually prioritizing bricklayers, construction workers and marble cutters, the way we did in the 1950s after the Second World War?

[Peter Fonseca, Liberal, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

I think we all hear the types of stories you're bringing up. I've talked to some of the companies that work in roofing, some big Portuguese Canadian companies. I'll say, “You don't have these types of roofs in Portugal. What makes these workers, who do other types of roofing, so good?” They'll go, “You know what? They have to put food on the table and they have the skill set.” It's not only the skill set to be able to do the work; it's also the attitude. Even coming from warm countries, they'll work at 30° below or 30° above. They want to put food on the table. They want to grow a family here. They are here for the long term. That's what they want to do.

If we're providing that doorway, that window, I think we're doing a great thing not only for that immigrant, that family, that asylum seeker or refugee, or someone who's come in who can look at the trades, but also for growing the Canadian economy.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

In talking to the building trades in Toronto—the carpenters, LiUNA, the established building trades across both the residential and institutional sectors—have you come across a union yet that hasn't talked about the labour shortage that's present, the one that's on the horizon, and the need for training programs? Is there any labour organization in the GTA that isn't talking about the building trades shortage?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Please make your answer very brief.

[Peter Fonseca, Liberal, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

From conversations I've had, there isn't one. LiUNA, carpenters, painters, you name it—every organized labour group out there, which is unusual—are saying they need people. If they're saying that, and the contractors are saying the same thing, and the industry associations, I think we're all on the same page.

It's just a matter now of looking at maybe a model like the Atlantic one, which has worked well, and being able to implement this. It would start, of course, with the GTHA, where you'd be able to measure and look at how things are going and then do a rollout. I've heard from members that they would like to see it across the country.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

I'm afraid that will have to be the last word. We are out of time.

First of all, thank you, Mr. Fonseca. I also appreciate your mentioning the Portuguese. As you perfectly well know, they contributed greatly in building my riding. They are a huge component of my riding in Cambridge.

We will suspend briefly as we shift up the seats a bit and bring in both ESDC and Citizenship and Immigration.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Welcome back, everybody.

To continue today, we've been joined by department officials. First, from the Department of Employment and Social Development we have Elisha Ram, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch. Welcome.

We also have Stephen Johnson, Director General, Labour Market Information Directorate. Welcome, sir.

And we have Steven West, Director, Sector Policy Division. Welcome.

Also, from the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, we have Natasha Kim, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic and Program Policy; and David Cashaback, Director General, Immigration Branch.

Welcome to all of you. Each department will get 10 minutes for opening remarks. We'll start with ESDC.

Who is going to take the lead?

Mr. Ram, go ahead, it's all yours.

[Elisha Ram, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development]

Good morning, everyone.

I would like to begin by thanking the members of the standing committee for inviting me to speak today.

I would also like to acknowledge that we are gathered here today on traditional, unceded Algonquin territory.

As the associate assistant deputy minister at Employment and Social Development Canada, I welcome the opportunity to participate in your study of the challenges facing the construction industry in the Greater Toronto Area and in Hamilton, in accessing skilled labour.

The study comes at a significant time for the Canadian labour market. As you've heard, unemployment is at an all-time low in many regions in the country. This has led many sectors, including the construction industry in the greater Toronto area and in Hamilton, as well as in other regions, such as northeastern Alberta and the Lower Mainland in British Columbia, to experience a variety of labour market challenges.

The Department of Employment and Social Development Canada has a wide array of programs and other supports available to address workforce shortages and other skills challenges and ensure the development of a strong and inclusive labour force. These resources support Canadian workers to gain the skills and experience they need to succeed, while also supporting employers who are seeking to access, develop and retain the labour force they require to grow their businesses.

One key area of skills development programming is apprenticeships. This is a proven model for transitioning workers into well-paying jobs in the skilled trades, including in the construction industry in the GTA and in Hamilton.

In recent years, the Department of Employment and Social Development has introduced several new apprenticeship programs to encourage Canadians to explore training and apprenticeship opportunities and to support innovation and training for the skilled trades.

As an example, ESDC supports union-based apprenticeship training innovation and enhanced partnerships in Red Seal trades through the union training and innovation program. The program provides funding to unions to share the cost of training equipment. The key component to the program is to support under-represented groups, with a goal of helping more Canadians to find rewarding and well-paying careers in the skilled trades.

As well, a new pre-apprenticeship program was introduced recently to encourage Canadians to explore and prepare for careers in the skilled trades. The program includes support for individuals from under-represented groups who are interested in attaining careers in the skilled trades. It can include young people, people from indigenous communities, new immigrants, women, and other under-represented groups.

Mr. Chair, a strong labour force depends on a job market where both men and women have a real and fair chance of success. Advancing gender equality and diversity in workplaces is not just good for women; it's good for all Canadians. While the share of women in the skilled trades has almost doubled over the past 40 years, there is more that can be done to close the gender gaps, and in turn help increase the supply of qualified labour, including in the trades.

The new women in construction fund supports projects building on existing models that have proven to be effective in attracting women to the trades. These models provide aid such as mentoring, coaching and tailored supports that help women progress through the training and find and retain jobs in the trades.

The quality of labour market opportunities for women is as important as the quantity. The apprenticeship incentive grant for women is a new grant that supports women to enter, progress and complete their training in Red Seal trades where women are traditionally under-represented and which are typically higher-paying.

Providing opportunities for workplace experience is an important part of our efforts, as work experience is critical to a successful transition for youth from school to work.

In addition to the programs designed to attract new workers, the Government of Canada provides a variety of supports to apprentices in the skilled trades along the way. Apprentices, for example, can receive grants and loans during a four-year apprenticeship program in Red Seal trades. They are eligible for various tax credits, and they can receive employment insurance benefits during the in-school training portion of the apprenticeship.

The Government of Canada recognizes also that employers are a crucial part of the equation. The apprenticeship job creation tax credit gives employers a credit for each apprentice they hire in eligible trades in the first two years of their apprenticeship programs.

Newcomers to Canada are another source of potential labour for the construction industry, and we are working with partners to facilitate the integration of skilled newcomers into the Canadian labour market. For example, in the GTA, we work with organizations such as the Toronto Region Immigrant Employment Council and the Centre for Education & Training. In collaboration with these stakeholders, we help simplify the foreign credential recognition process, provide direct service supports and micro-loans to cover the foreign credential recognition expenses of newcomers, and support them in gaining their first Canadian work experience.

I'd also like to say a few words about temporary workers, about whom we've already heard a little bit today. In situations where qualified Canadians and permanent residents are not available to fill jobs and labour shortages persist, the temporary foreign worker program is also available as a program of last resort to help employers, including in the construction sector, to address their genuine labour requirements.

Through this program, employers can seek to hire qualified foreign workers on a short-term basis when Canadians and permanent residents are not available.

Members of the committee may recall that as part of the government's response to the committee's 2016 report on the temporary foreign worker program, ESDC announced in April 2017 that it would work with industries that are heavy users of the temporary foreign worker program to review labour needs and identify appropriate workforce development strategies. One of the industries identified for this review was the construction industry.

In following up on the commitment, ESDC held a series of round tables with the construction sector in February and March of last year. Through these discussions, the participants identified several key challenges for the industry, including the recruitment of workers, the image of the industry, a lack of labour mobility, and the inability to share scheduling and planning of projects within the industry.

There are also opportunities for employers to enhance their efforts to recruit workers from traditionally under-represented groups, including women, indigenous people, youth and recent immigrants, among others. Many employers in the GTA and surrounding areas have been working to modernize their recruitment techniques to capture the attention of young people. They have also implemented sensitivity training to make their workplaces more attractive to women and other under-represented groups. This is a great start, but even more can be done and should be done. This is a win-win scenario. Employers will be able to access workers and grow their businesses, while more Canadians will gain well-paid jobs and experience that will serve them well in their working lives.

In addition to apprenticeships and temporary solutions, the department also works with parties, such as provinces, territories and industry, to make investment in skills training so that more Canadians are able to participate in the labour market. Each year, the government invests over $2 billion through the labour market development agreements with the provinces and territories to support Canadians with skills training and employment support that is funded through employment insurance. Under these agreements, employment benefits enable eligible participants to gain skills and work experience. These agreements also support the provision of employment services assistance for all Canadians, which helps them in searching and preparing for jobs so that they can fulfill their potential.

The government has negotiated new workforce development agreements with most provinces and territories that enable them to provide employment assistance and skills training to respond to the diverse needs of their respective clients.

Having access to timely and accurate labour market information is another tool to help industries, including the construction sector in the Greater Toronto Area and in Hamilton, address labour shortages.

Through the sectorial initiatives program, Employment and Social Development Canada has supported sectoral organizations to produce industry-validated labour market information, including labour forecasts in the construction industry.

These forecasts help the construction industry identify the nature and scope of labour shortages. They consider factors such as the current labour supply and demand, the gender gap and population growth. This information has been used widely by employers, unions, sector organizations and various levels of government to help tailor programming and develop strategies.

In conclusion, ESDC is taking the labour issue in the construction industry very seriously and welcomes the study. Real change requires partnership between governments, businesses, unions, non-governmental organizations and civil society. There remains an opportunity for all of us to continue to work in partnerships to support Canadian industries and workers.

Thank you again for the opportunity to appear with you today. I and my colleagues will be pleased to answer your questions.