Human Resources Committee on May 16th, 2019

[Leslie MacLean]

In all cases where we provided the incorrect amount to the MP, when we follow up to set up the agreement, we're of course using the correct amount and explaining our error. So, there should be no agreements with anyone that have the wrong amount. The error was in the information we provided to members of Parliament to provide to the organizations.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

So, you're just adjusting it to what the member of Parliament....

[Leslie MacLean]

That's exactly right, yes.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

What is the department doing to ensure that this isn't repeated, if it was human error, just to make sure that seniors and members of Parliament don't have to go through this again?

[Leslie MacLean]

We have an approach we use within the organization of “lessons learned”, and we have already had one of those exercises on this, both to understand what factors led to the error in the first place and to make sure that we have a good approach for quality control going forward, so that we don't repeat the error. We do that sometimes after large implementations when things go well, and sometimes when they don't go as well.

We've already had the opportunity to think through what caused the original error, and what things we will be doing differently in the future.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

MP Hogg.

[Gordie Hogg, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

In B.C., we have a number of issues with respect to the homeless and homelessness, both chronic and episodic. I noted that previous plans sought to reduce both episodic and chronic homelessness by 20%. Last year's statistics, I think, showed that it had actually increased by some 6%.

In departmental plans, 20% was to be achieved by the 2018-19. This year, the goal is not mentioned for the episodically homeless. Does that mean the metrics we were using, or the challenges that were there, are no longer part of the budget? How are we now dealing with this? What are the metrics we're looking at? What are the strategies to address chronic and episodic homelessness?

[Graham Flack]

The target under the Reaching Home strategy remains a 50% reduction in chronic homelessness by 2027-28. You are correct that each year for, I believe, three years now we've done a count. One of the challenges has been measurement. This isn't an area where there is an easy measure. I think there is still room for refinement. The error rate on that measure isn't as tight as it might be with some other samples.

The goal, however, remains the same. The investment in Reaching Home is about $2.2 billion over 10 years—I think it hits its peak level in 2020-21 of $237 million per year—and the goal is to move chronic homelessness to less than 50% of its current level by 2027-28.

Did that answer your question?

[Gordie Hogg, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Yes, but I'm still a bit stuck on the metrics, given how challenging they are to evaluate. I know that during the winter months, when we have a better winter, we see people migrating from other parts of Canada to the lower mainland of British Columbia and Vancouver Island. It's a pretty fluid population, and we've seen a lot of media coverage over this past year on homeless camps.

I'm wondering whether or not there are strategies to deal with this, given the population and the shifts. How do you make determinations with respect to the allocation of funding—where it will go, and where the most dramatic challenges exist?

[Graham Flack]

The programming has long-standing arrangements with larger communities that have been in place for some time, communities that have had a persistent level of homelessness. In addition to that, with the new resources, the government is doing a call for proposal to add additional communities to that, with an evidence-based assessment of which communities have the greatest need in the next year.

But you are identifying one of the big challenges that we've historically had in this area, which is getting a precise handle on the number of individuals, given that for many, homelessness may be a transitory feature and not constant.

So I'd say that for the bulk of the resources, there's enough stability that the cities and the programs and the community-based programs that are developed are designed to reflect that. But I think you're quite right in pointing out that this is a community that, given weather and other patterns, can move, and the program is not nimble enough on a sub-annual basis to be able to make those kinds of movements.

[Gordie Hogg, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

I think the focus on the homelessness and chronic and episodic homelessness represents about 1% of your budget.

How much did that lever with provinces and community-based organizations? I'm trying to get some sense of the overall quantum that we as a society look at and focus on in this type of challenge. What percentage does the federal government play within that framework? What are the principles being applied? Are there a set of principles that are best practice models applied across Canada, or are there practices that are employed in other parts of the world that we may have learned from?

What are the best practices and what percentage of those does the federal government play a role in? What role do we play in trying to establish best practice models?

[Graham Flack]

I don't have the precise numbers here, but in terms of spending, we would be the smallest of the spenders of the three levels of government in the area, in the space. The provinces and municipalities would spend larger amounts than we spend in the space, but we will try to follow up and get the most recent global figures so you can get the full percentage for this.

One of the lessons in the new strategy for dealing with homelessness that we took into account was really to have a community, bottom-up approach to homelessness. One of the new features of the program is that community-based design to allow it to be tailored to the unique circumstances of the community and the strategies that have worked there. That is, I think, one of the lessons that has been learned, not only from Canadian but also from international experience of not trying to impose a common approach in each area, given the results.

[Gordie Hogg, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

As a principle of public policy, we generally want to go closer to where it's being implemented and the impact it's having on the communities, so I'm delighted to hear that.

We see quite a reaction in some parts of our province to homeless people being moved around aggressively. I don't know whether there are best practices in that regard. It's a simple principle. Those people who are being impacted should be consulted about the practices and the implementation of the policy.

Are those things looked at? Are there best practice models that we should be looking at that we could be providing guidance to or with?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

A brief answer.

[Gordie Hogg, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Just as a value statement, rather than as an implementation practice....

[Graham Flack]

One of the best practices is around coordinated access, to have a common system to allow booking of the rooms. That's something on which a national approach, a national investment in the kind of software that would allow people to do that, can be useful. That's an example of where a national practice rather than just a bottom-up approach may be useful.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

MP Kmiec, please, five minutes.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

My questions are strictly for the CEO of CMHC, and are specific to vote 1 and vote 10.

I'm just going to continue where we left off last Tuesday at the public accounts committee when the Auditor General tabled the report criticizing the board management at the CMHC.

I was told that in the last two or three weeks an email went out from you, Mr. Siddall, to your staff about the management of the shared equity mortgage program. You were canvassing your corporation, the staff, for ideas on how to do the rollout of the program.

Is that true?

[Evan Siddall]

Not in my recollection, sir, no, it's not.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Is there no such email existing?

[Evan Siddall]

We're certainly in the midst of operationalizing it. There was not a broad canvassing of my colleagues, though, sir.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Following up from public accounts committee last week as well, you're asking for a large sum of money and you will be asked to be the agent of the Crown. That's what you had told me at committee. I heard from Mortgage Professionals Canada, just downstairs today, and from others as well, that rolling this out would take up to 10 months just to get the IT systems into place on the broker side, on the loan side.

Has that been taken into account at all in the rollout of this program?

[Evan Siddall]

We're taking all those factors into account, sir.

We intend to, and we will, stand it up by September, as the government promised we would do, for all available people.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Is that still the case even if on the private lenders' side, they won't be able to keep up with you?

You'll be able to deliver the program, but what happens if B lenders, unregulated lenders, credit unions don't have the IT systems in place? They won't be able to offer these shared equity mortgages. However, the big banks with large IT departments will.

Will you still proceed ahead?

[Evan Siddall]

We will not proceed ahead in a way that discriminates against lenders.

In fact, our solution, sir, is to fulfill the funding on our own, as opposed to through lenders, because of this particular technical difficulty.