Human Resources Committee on Nov. 22nd, 2016

[Monique Moreau]

Their house.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

My next question is for Madam Levine.

First of all, thank you for sharing your inspiring story and for sharing it with other promising youth for whom you're working. On reserve, in most instances, people do not have collateral that they can take to the bank because there isn't private ownership of homes. Someone can't go to the bank and say, “Can I get a small business loan? I'll use my house to guarantee it.” Is that an accurate statement?

[Danielle Levine]

It depends on where the individual is from, but yes, it is.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

I'm going to ask you just to estimate because this is a very specific question: on what percentage of reserves is it possible to collateralize your home in order to get a small business loan?

[Danielle Levine]

I wouldn't be able to give you that percentage. I don't know that off the top of my head. Some communities have been very successful in doing something called a certificate of possession, which allows them to unlock the potential in their reserve holdings, but I would not be able to give you that percentage.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Do you know of reserves where that's not possible?

[Danielle Levine]

I hear about those kinds of situations all the time. The irony here is that those who are most marginalized and want to start a small business will often get turned away. They don't have any financial access to credit to start their small businesses, even from the aboriginal financial lending institutions, because they're just that risky. Even the aboriginal financial institutions that are there to support them will turn them away.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

International development economists have written about the trillions of dollars of wealth on which the world's poorest people live but to which they have no access, because they do not have title for the property they live on. Therefore, they cannot get even the smallest amount in loans to initiate a micro-business that could grow into a prosperous life for them.

Do you agree that this is a problem on reserves where people cannot use the property that they do live on in order to get credit?

[Danielle Levine]

Absolutely. It's definitely a problem.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Chief Bear of Saskatchewan approached me when I was the employment and social development minister and asked CMHC to work with his band on developing land use policies that would allow lenders to view the homes of aboriginal residents on his reserve as collateral, so that his members could actually get loans and start businesses.

Do you think this is something that CMHC should work on with all willing aboriginal communities?

[Danielle Levine]

Absolutely. Any initiative in that direction would be a positive initiative. As well, I think it would be a positive thing to also ensure that it's communicated to individuals in those communities. Often, there's a disconnect. You'll see businesses that are started at the band level but not necessarily by individual entrepreneurs. It's about making sure the message gets out to the broader community and not just chiefs and councils.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Social assistance programs are necessarily means tested, and I suspect it's the same for aboriginal communities; that is, when people start to earn more money, they start to lose their benefits. Sometimes the formula is so punitive and the clawback rate is so high that people who are on social assistance find themselves worse off by working. Is this a phenomenon that affects people on first nations reserves?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Very quickly, please.

[Danielle Levine]

Absolutely. If you want to see change, that's the exact change we need to see happen, because there is a disincentive to actually earn money, to incrementally earn more money. That's the kind of sea change we need to see.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

We'll go to MP Tassi, please.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

I'd like to address my first question to Ms. Flanagan.

I really admire and appreciate your engagement with youth. I've worked with youth for 20 years, so I recognize their potential. In fact, I've co-authored a book entitled Greatness in Our Teenagers, so I'm of the same philosophy that you are: it's there, and we have to do what we can to bring that greatness out.

You touched on something that I've experienced in education myself, and that is, loving parents often will select pathways for their children. My question for you is, what can we do as a federal government that would enable youth to recognize their gifts and pursue their dreams?

You've mentioned the bridging between industry and youth, but parents are often a hard sell with respect to this business of how you can't go to college and how you have to be university bound. What can we do as a federal government to empower youth, to give them the opportunities to pursue the areas of work they're interested in?

[Jennifer Flanagan]

It comes from a lot of engagement with parents. Parents tend to use their minds. We have seen it, and often it comes with such good intentions.

We have a situation that I'm personally helping with right now, with one of the youth on our youth advisory council whose parents did not go to university. They have significant economic challenges, and they have a very bright daughter. She is achieving extremely high marks. They can't see anything else other than her staying with those high marks and doing everything she can to keep those marks perfect, because that is the only way she will get financial assistance to go into university.

It's just one example, but it is something where we can have conversations; they can be exposed.... Often it's just awareness of opportunities. Parents are aware of only what they're aware of. It's just like youth; they only know what they know. I think there needs to be more support and recognition for the importance of parental engagement.

When the federal government is investing in programs that engage youth, they need to encourage a component in there of parental engagement: What are the youth doing; what are they learning; what are the messages they're hearing? We encourage our members across the country to send notes home with the kids to say what the child learned that day. Those of us who have kids know that they're not always forthcoming with that information. That's especially important in communities where the parents are struggling for whatever reason.

That conversation just needs to be started and supported. It's a program area that a few people have tacked on, organizations like Actua, but not one that we've ever had funding to do. It's kind of a secondary thing that we've realized is really important, and now we're elevating that to say it's essential. If we put all this effort into getting the youth engaged, and they go home and they're completely discouraged, our work is not successful.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

If the funding is provided for that particular program, do you find that the parents are receptive, that they will actually come out, that they will listen?

[Jennifer Flanagan]

Yes, with information and opportunity to experience.

As I said, parents are often intimidated, and especially right now with what we're seeing in the digital economy. Many parents are under the mistaken belief that their child is digitally literate because they can use technology. That's one of the big dangers we have in developing technical skills.

A lot of people think, “Well, my two-year-old can use my iPhone, so they're fine.” That is something we're talking a lot to parents about, to say, absolutely not, that's not building digital skills. That is potentially putting them in harm's way in terms of online security and safety. Parents need both the information about what the opportunity is, and they also need to actually have a chance to experience.

We're doing a lot. All of our indigenous programs, for example, have a parental engagement component. Not only are they invited in to see what their youth are doing, but they actually participate in the activities with the youth. It's getting them to work alongside their kids in that.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Levine, my next question is for you. I'm going to share an experience with you, and then I'd like you to comment on it.

There's an indigenous young boy in my community who has made application for funding for post-secondary education. He essentially went through first year university, completed that, but then took the second year off to raise money to pay for that second year of university. What happened was that was actually held against him. He took a year off, so he wasn't deemed as successful, when in fact he was just trying to.... In fact, he'd be more successful, because that's the type of individual he is.

Are there recommendations that the federal government could adopt that would help in a situation like that, with respect to funding for education for indigenous young people?

[Danielle Levine]

Absolutely. I see that kind of scenario every single day. What that indigenous youth probably could have done differently is to communicate to his funding officer within the band, which he probably did not do.

Unfortunately, bands don't have enough money to put through all of their members who want to take training and post-secondary training, so they have to make really hard decisions. They're not going to invest in members who aren't successful in their education, or—

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Do you have any idea of the percentage of indigenous youth who don't get funded?

[Danielle Levine]

It's very high.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Do you mean very high like 50%?

[Danielle Levine]

I mean very high like almost all.