Evidence of meeting #35 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was federal.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Vicky Stergiopoulos  Physician-in-Chief, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health
Ed Mantler  Vice President, Programs and Priorities, Mental Health Commission of Canada
Ricardo Tranjan  Manager, Poverty Reduction Strategy, Social Development, Finance and Administration, City of Toronto
Michael Creek  Director, Strategic Initiatives, Working for Change
Lubna Khalid  Coordinator, Women Speak Out, Working for Change
Kelly Murphy  Policy Development Officer, Social Development, Finance and Administration, City of Toronto

10 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Thanks for that. I am just going to....

Go ahead.

10 a.m.

Manager, Poverty Reduction Strategy, Social Development, Finance and Administration, City of Toronto

Ricardo Tranjan

Sorry; just to pick up on that and on the previous question on innovation and evaluation, I wanted to call attention to the Local Poverty Reduction Fund. The Ontario Poverty Reduction Strategy Office created, as part of the mandate of the office, a fund that provides grants for community organizations working on poverty to evaluate ongoing initiatives—on the ground, grassroots—and to then report back on whether or not those are feasible solutions moving forward and should be scaled up or not. I think that's a great example that should be looked at.

10 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Thank you.

I read a story last night about a business professional who had mental health issues and didn't get help. He really fell through the system, if you will, and he fell, and he fell, and he fell until he was on the street.

I jotted down some notes and I'll quickly read them: “Poverty creates barriers to accessing resources that people with mental illness need for recovery. For people predisposed to mental illness, losing stabilizing resources like home and income can increase risk factors for mental illness or relapse. It disrupts education and career path and diminishes opportunities for employment. No employment, no income, mental illness, chronic poverty.”

As a committee, we're looking for innovative ways or a new strategy to suggest to government, something innovative. We use innovation a lot.

I'm going to ask Mr. Mantler and maybe Kelly, Ricardo, Michael, Lubna, to tell me some innovative ways of thinking that you've seen over the last few years that we could use as a federal government to help in this crisis.

10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Please be very brief.

10 a.m.

Vice President, Programs and Priorities, Mental Health Commission of Canada

Ed Mantler

Housing First started as an innovation and, of course, it's now been proven.

10 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

But something—

10 a.m.

Vice President, Programs and Priorities, Mental Health Commission of Canada

Ed Mantler

There is work taking place in workplaces to make workplaces more accessible to those experiencing mental illness, either entering the work force or staying within the work force. We have a case study of 40 organizations implementing the national standard on psychological health and safety in the workplace that will highlight innovations. We would be happy to provide that report when it becomes available in the new year.

10 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Actually, what we'll do is.... I think I'll get some more time.

10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Yes, we'll get another round in.

We'll go over to MP Warawa for five minutes, please.

10 a.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here. It's a very interesting discussion.

Poverty, as defined very broadly, is the state or condition of having little or no money, goods, or means of support. It's a very broad definition. The issue of poverty reduction is a very complex issue, as is mental illness. Mental illness comes in many forms. I appreciate your testimony, and we're looking for solutions.

I'm thinking of my colleague Pierre, who gave an example of some success that was seen, and there was resistance to funding because it was unconventional.

A question was asked at a meeting on this very issue. How do you create wealth? If poverty is a lack of wealth, then how does one create wealth? We heard from some of the witnesses that they were living in poverty, and then, through actions, they were able to get themselves out of that condition, whether it was caused by mental illness or other circumstances.

I think back to the 1980s when interest rates went up to 20%, and there were many people who found themselves homeless. They lost their homes. They lost their jobs. It was tough. There were huge stresses, and possible mental illness and stress caused depression.

I digress, I and reflect that this is a very complex issue we're discussing.

My focus is on seniors and how this impacts seniors. I had a meeting with the senior advocate of British Columbia. Probably the most vulnerable person to be stigmatized is a senior, a single female senior, who is struggling. Are we talking about job placement for that person? No.

Twenty per cent of seniors who are having difficulty are put in residential care. Twenty per cent of them should not be in residential care, and within seven days they begin to receive antipsychotic and antidepressant drugs as a way of managing them. They are being treated as if they have a mental illness, but it's a way of managing them.

When I heard this, I was very disturbed that we have that many people being put in care that don't need.... The proper way of caring for these vulnerable people is to provide home care, allowing them to age in place, but we're not looking for job placement; we're looking for dignity and care and help. They maybe would love to volunteer.

Could somebody make comments on how we take care of our aging population?

10:05 a.m.

Director, Strategic Initiatives, Working for Change

Michael Creek

I'll start.

I don't think we do a very good job of looking after seniors. Here in Ontario, which I can comment on, and particularly in Toronto, we're seeing more and more seniors falling into poverty and also into homelessness.

One of the things we also don't do very well is that we've created the medicalization of becoming older, and we need to get away from that. Hopefully, we can do that in Ontario with a new health care approach with patients first, where patients will have a little more control over their medicalization.

What you brought up around seniors being given medication is of great concern. It raises a lot of alarm bells for people in my community.

How does a 59-year-old person or a 60-year-old person return to work? We see them returning to work. They are the greeters at Walmart. They are the greeters at stores in low-paying jobs that are dead ends for people. We don't take advantage of the wealth and experience and knowledge that seniors often can bring to organizations.

I do think that within the component of developing a strong employment strategy that will help people out of poverty, the seniors will need to play a very vital role.

10:05 a.m.

Manager, Poverty Reduction Strategy, Social Development, Finance and Administration, City of Toronto

Ricardo Tranjan

In my opening remarks, I mentioned that the poverty reduction strategy is an assistance strategy. By that we mean that the strategy builds on our place-based and population-based strategies.

Toronto has a workforce development strategy, a youth equity strategy, a strong neighbourhoods strategy, and a seniors strategy, and we build on all that. We learn from it, and we try to use this strategy to further support the actions and recommendations in those strategies.

We are just in the process of developing the second iteration of the seniors strategy, and I would be happy to forward you our work thus far on that front.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Thank you very much, everybody.

Now we have Ms. Ashton for three minutes.

10:10 a.m.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB

Great. Thank you very much.

I realize this is a recurring theme in our discussions here, but when we're talking about recommendations, while we get excited about the idea of coming up with something new, the reality is that we certainly haven't mastered the age-old recommendations of how to deal with poverty and mental health.

What's clear to me here is that everybody is talking about the need for housing. There's a direct federal responsibility when it comes to housing, so I certainly hope that coming out of your presentations we have some strong recommendations on the need for the federal government to step it up when it comes to housing.

I also want to revisit one area that you, Mr. Mantler, have talked about, which is the particular experience of indigenous communities.

I have the honour of representing a number of indigenous communities in Manitoba. There's a very clear link between the neglect of the social determinants of health—we know that first nations, for example, fall under federal jurisdiction—and poverty and mental health. A number of the communities I represent have had mental health crises and suicide crises.

When you ask young people what they need, you hear them talk of recreation, housing, and the need not to go hungry. I'm wondering if perhaps you, Mr. Mantler, and others would like to share in the short time that I have how important it is to make sure that very basic fundamentals are covered. Is there a role for the federal government to step it up on that front?

10:10 a.m.

Vice President, Programs and Priorities, Mental Health Commission of Canada

Ed Mantler

We know the impact of the determinants of health. The ongoing systemic lack of access to safe housing, clean water, and food security has a devastating impact on these communities. We also know that access to good quality education, health care services, and psychological services that are culturally sensitive and appropriate is lacking in these communities.

I believe the federal government has a role to play in ensuring easy access to quality, culturally appropriate services in that way.

10:10 a.m.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB

Does anyone else have a quick comment?

10:10 a.m.

Manager, Poverty Reduction Strategy, Social Development, Finance and Administration, City of Toronto

Ricardo Tranjan

I think we mentioned in our opening remarks the importance of the infrastructure plan and the investments that have been made so far in social and affordable housing. We can't stress enough how essential housing is. We need to continue to invest in it. Otherwise, a lot of the work we've been doing here at the municipal and provincial levels will not yield the results we hoped for.

10:10 a.m.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB

Thank you.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Fantastic. Thank you.

Now we'll go back to Mark Warawa for six minutes, please.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC

Thank you.

Another major problem that average human beings deal with as we age is memory loss, but that's not mental illness. If there's some sort of dementia and loss of cognitive skill, that would be mental illness, but there are normal physiological problems with aging that need to be addressed.

There was in the news just recently a man who lost all of his wealth through a form of elder abuse by his children, and his cushion to be able to retire with dignity was taken. We've heard over the years about the growing problem of elder abuse.

I believe seniors are stigmatized. They are seen at the end, yet they are a huge resource of experience and talent that can be tapped into and used to benefit Canada, even in the form of volunteerism, if they do have resources. About 80% of seniors do, while about 20% rent and have very limited supplementary resources.

I'll ask you to talk about how we can engage our senior population, who are maybe experiencing poverty, so that we can make full use of those talents. Even if there are some cognitive difficulties, we need to show them dignity and keep them active. Poverty is not only dollars, or lack of, but poverty is being left in isolation or experiencing elder abuse. How do we properly take care of our senior population? If we do it properly, it may not cost anything. It may be a huge benefit to our country and our communities.

Do you have any comments?

10:15 a.m.

Vice President, Programs and Priorities, Mental Health Commission of Canada

Ed Mantler

I can make two points very quickly—

10:15 a.m.

Director, Strategic Initiatives, Working for Change

Michael Creek

I'll go ahead again. I'll go ahead first.

I was thinking the other day about seniors because I'm getting close to that age. One of the things I thought that we could do as a society—and the federal government, of course, could have a role in this—is an integration of seniors housing within university and college campuses. I think that the wealth and knowledge that people have can open up some areas to address low-income housing for seniors. It would give the experience to students to be able to have a better understanding of social programs and the needs of seniors communities. We could be quite inventive around things like that in addressing some of the social issues, but at the same time we could build a better type of community for all of us.

10:15 a.m.

Vice President, Programs and Priorities, Mental Health Commission of Canada

Ed Mantler

I'll make two points very, very quickly.

The first point is that often those who work with seniors and who are supporting seniors—home care workers, workers in care homes, bankers, lawyers, and others who interact with seniors—don't have the skills and abilities to recognize when a mental health issue is emerging or know what to do about it. We've worked with the Trillium Foundation in Toronto to develop a version of mental health first aid specifically to help those who work with seniors to recognize early on when there are issues and to know how to address them.

The second point I'll make is around recovery and the understanding that everyone needs a home, a job, and a friend. Perhaps a friend is one of the components that's most important to seniors, because many do live in isolation. Peer support is an effective mechanism to support and foster interaction within the communities, and there actually are guidelines to help anyone be able to support their peers that can be applied to seniors, I think, in an effective way.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC

Is there any time left?

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

You have one minute.