Human Resources Committee on Feb. 2nd, 2017

[Michel Tremblay]

It would be helpful for sure.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Okay.

Mr. MacArthur, would you comment?

[Charles MacArthur]

I think we need to be creative. We do the housing part, and if there's a wraparound service that makes sense, I think we need to look at it. We also have the innovation fund there, so folks with good projects that are unique and the like should come and visit.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you.

Ms. Scott, thank you for your presentation. Again, I was proud that Minister Jean-Yves Duclos came to Saint John and named it one of the cities in the rollout of the tackling poverty together project. That project will encompass six cities across the country. We're very excited to be involved in that.

I do want to talk briefly about shelters and homelessness and the Housing First program you're implementing. As I said at the last meeting we had, in our group we have about 60 people in Saint John who serve breakfast at the Outflow men's shelter every Saturday morning. I'm there first-hand. I'm getting to know that situation very well.

The concern I have is that Outflow would get roughly $170,000 a year from the province for running the men's shelter, but they would have to privately raise probably two or three times that just to stay functional and provide the service they do.

Can you talk about what you see for the future, and potential innovation to help in situations such as that, and how important it would be to have the proper alignment between the federal and provincial governments to help those people living on the streets?

[Catherine Scott]

To begin with, the federal government obviously isn't the only investor addressing homelessness. There are a number of provinces that make very significant investments, in particular some of the larger provinces, Ontario and Alberta. We work very collaboratively with the provincial governments as much as possible to try to align approaches and to ensure, for example, that program directives at the federal level aren't impeding approaches at the provincial level and vice versa. I think we can do more. Moving forward, that's one place where we want to look at greater collaboration with the provinces and territories. We do know that for every dollar the federal government invests, there are significant dollars invested by either provincial, municipal, or private sources.

To speak about innovation, one of Minister Duclos' mandate letter commitments is also around the development of a social innovation and social finance strategy. As part of that, how do you ensure that community loan funds have the capital they need to work with organizations like the one you mentioned in terms of providing patient capital or more generous loan terms to allow for investments and those types of initiatives? How do you look at social innovation approaches that may come up with some very unique partnerships that allow for collective impact and greater social impact over time? I think those are some really important pieces that we'll also be developing that I think could have a real impact for all organizations that provide community services.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

One of the issues that we face in Saint John with respect to Outflow, as an example, is that Outflow is coming up with different social innovation projects and putting these men to work, whether it's carpentry, in a coffee shop, or what have you, and social enterprise too, I guess, but again, there doesn't seem to be a clear source at times of support funding for those kinds of programs. These guys and ladies at the shelter are kind of left on their own to figure a lot of this out.

Can you again just tell me what plans you have moving forward to aid people like that? People at Outflow run the men's shelter, but they're also part-time psychologists, medical people—you name it. They're so caught up. What other support do you see coming that could help those people in shelters?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

We're actually at time, but I'll give you a moment to answer that.

[Catherine Scott]

Certainly the governance structure that we have under the homelessness partnering strategy, the community advisory boards, have shown that in some communities they've made real strides in terms of a collaborative and systems-based approach whereby they try to direct organizations and individuals to the services they need.

We've seen some great examples. For example, in Hamilton they've been able to leverage data and do things like by-name lists to try to pinpoint those individuals who need very direct interventions and lead them to the services they need. That's one example I could provide.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

Now we go to MP Boutin-Sweet for six minutes, please.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Tremblay, I would like to go back to the last question I asked you.

Do you have an estimate of how many social housing units would have to be built to eliminate the waiting lists? For the upcoming budget, have you thought of the people who have lost their subsidies? Is something going to be done for people in that situation?

[Michel Tremblay]

In terms of an estimate of the number of housing units, I don’t have the data with me. I can forward it to the committee later, if we have it.

As for the people who have already lost their subsidies, once again, that will depend on the new initiatives in the national housing strategy. We have to wait for the details of the strategy to see how those issues will be addressed.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

The next budget will come out before the strategy. Can we expect it to include assistance for the people who have already lost their housing subsidies?

[Michel Tremblay]

Unfortunately, I don’t know the content of budget 2017.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

Okay.

I have many ideas, and I have already shared some as part of the consultation on the strategy. Here’s another one: it costs less to maintain green buildings than traditional buildings. So it is beneficial for everyone, especially for social housing and co-op housing, because the groups that need that type of housing are less able to pay.

CMHC’s original mandate is still the same, as you mentioned: to help people find affordable housing.

Could CMHC become an effective tool providing financial incentives for sustainable building and energy retrofit? I’m thinking of low-interest loans that might encourage groups to build green housing and make sustainable renovations.

[Michel Tremblay]

Is the question whether CMHC could do that?

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

Yes, my idea is to use CMHC for that type of funding, among other things. Could that be considered?

[Michel Tremblay]

Yes, I think it could be considered.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

Is it a possibility we can expect? You answered quickly.

[Michel Tremblay]

I cannot elaborate, but CMHC could do it. We already have the authorization to make loans. That’s what I meant.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

Do you think it might be useful in the circumstances I described?

[Michel Tremblay]

I think the green building principle should definitely be explored. That would actually help the Government of Canada, and the country, to achieve more than one objective: first, providing access to affordable housing, and second, protecting the environment.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

I am also contemplating a partnership between the federal government, the provincial governments and the cities. For instance, we could take advantage of the municipal taxes, the taxes on construction materials, and so on. It would also be possible to lower construction costs and building maintenance costs. I have plenty of ideas for you, just come and see me.

In terms of the national housing strategy, it must be said that the housing situation is really different from coast to coast to coast. Do you agree with me that a strategy should be flexible enough to allow the regions dealing with specific problems to solve them on their own? Flexibility is an important criterion of the strategy.

A second, equally important criterion is that, to be effective, a strategy must come with resources, especially financial resources. What is proposed in a strategy must truly become a reality because we have the resources we need to do so.

Third, the work required to implement the strategy, not just the consultations, must be done in partnerships with grassroots groups, the community stakeholders.

[Michel Tremblay]

I think Minister Duclos repeatedly mentioned that he was definitely looking for transformative, flexible and innovative approaches.

He also focused on the partnership and co-operation between various stakeholders.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

Some groups are doing things that cost nothing at all, such as seniors who host students in their homes. I have seen that in St. John's. I have also seen it not far from here; I think it was in Gatineau. In St. John's, there weren't enough university residences. To solve that problem, they combined two solutions to address two different problems. When a young student goes to live with a senior, they can help each other financially and physically. So it is possible to include that sort of thing in a housing strategy.

Of course, a flexible strategy assumes that each region is able to determine what is important and what would be useful in its case.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Answer very quickly, please.