Human Resources Committee on Feb. 15th, 2017

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Do you have a number for what the costs would be?

[Kate Gunn]

I do not have a figure right now for the entire country. No, I'm sorry.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

We're over time, but Mr. Brownlee has been waiting very patiently with his hand up and I know he has a very brief comment he wants to share.

[Clark Brownlee]

It's brief but so important. Thank you very much.

One thing we haven't even talked about—and this is totally federal responsibility—is the taxes that are levied on the construction of housing, which increase the soft cost of housing considerably. Up to 12% of the price of a new building of any kind is taxes and fees by three levels of government, but the federal government has, over the years, increased that. As it's reaching into our pockets to do that, it's raising the cost of social and affordable housing, so that could easily be a recommendation.

Cut out that stuff. Reduce it. It's not necessary, and where does the money come from? That's a really good question. We could do a much better job of progressive taxation in this country. We're taxing people who are on the margins, and we're letting people who are making billions of dollars off pretty easy. I'm not a tax expert, but look at it. I think it's worth looking at.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Before we spiral into that conversation, I have to close the discussion.

I want to thank all of you for getting up early to join us today. I know I learned a lot. Thank you to all the committee members, all the logistics folks, and the people to my left and right who make this possible.

If you wouldn't mind staying in your seat, I would love to get a quick photo for the record if you are willing. Thank you very much.

Committee, we're going to break for about 10 to 15 minutes and then come back for the next round.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Good morning, everybody.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee is resuming its study on poverty reduction strategies.

We are very pleased to welcome two groups to the second panel this morning. From the Ma Mawi Wi Chi Itata Centre, we have Diane Redsky, executive director. Also, from the Social Planning Council of Winnipeg, we have Josh Brandon.

Thank you both for coming. We're going to give you up to 10 minutes to speak in your opening remarks. Then, of course, we will have questions from the panel after the introductions.

To start off, Diane Redsky, the next seven to 10 minutes are yours.

[Diane Redsky, Executive Director, Ma Mawi Wi Chi Itata Centre Inc.]

Thank you very much. Thank you for the opportunity to be here.

Welcome to Treaty 1 territory, the home of the Métis nation. Also, welcome to the indigenous capital of Canada. We know that we have more indigenous people here per capita than anywhere else in Canada. That is really important to us as an indigenous-led organization, which is what I'm here to represent, the Ma Mawi Wi Chi Itata Centre.

The Ma Mawi Wi Chi Itata Centre is an organization that this year will be 33 years old. It is a non-profit, non-mandated, indigenous-led organization in Manitoba. We are the largest in Manitoba, and we are focused on providing family resource support services to indigenous families in Winnipeg. We focus all of our work on indigenous families in Winnipeg.

The Ma Mawi Wi Chi Itata Centre, as I said, is a very large organization, and we have a number of key areas that are of interest to this group. The first one is our work in our community care centres. These are like family resource centres, where they're a little bit of everything to everyone. You can come and use the phone, do the laundry, talk to somebody, take a workshop, or become a volunteer, part-time staff, full-time staff, and then ultimately the executive director, if you keep going at it.

There's a place for everybody at Ma Mawi. Last year alone, we served just under 25,000 indigenous people within our community care centres. That's just a small part of the services that we deliver. The number one reason they are coming to the the Ma Mawi Wi Chi Itata Centre community care centre is that they are hungry. There's not enough food in their homes, in their fridges, in their cupboards, and they're hungry. We feed approximately 300 people lunch every single day, and this includes children, seniors, and elders, who are indigenous.

In terms of poverty and the purpose of this important consultation, there are some particular things I'd like to express to you with regard to how this affects indigenous people more than non-indigenous people, or anybody else, for that matter. It's rooted in gender inequality, racism, sexism, and classism, and it plays out in a whole bunch of different ways. Ultimately it can be very harmful, particularly for indigenous women and children, who are at greater risk because of the stereotypes that continue to exist in our country: that we just want to have sex, that we enjoy violence, that we want to have kids and then stay on welfare. We know that is not the case. The systems for the most part are the ones that continue to perpetuate and contribute to creating that vulnerability, so women actually have no choice but to live in the circumstances and survive within the circumstances of their situation.

Back in about 2010, we worked with the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives to start looking at trying to move away from these typical stereotypes about who is poor and what exactly they are doing. We titled that report, “It Takes All Day To Be Poor”. If we assume that people who are living in poverty are just lazy and wanting handouts, in fact they're probably the hardest working people in our society. It does take all day to be poor. You have to run around to food banks to get food, to get services, to go from point A to point B, and if you have bus tickets, you're lucky. If you have to tag along children, that can be a very challenging situation, particularly for single parents.

I want to give a short scenario of how this can be harmful to a single parent when other systems can be involved and we're not understanding the connection between poverty and child welfare. We know that most of the reasons why children are apprehended is that people are poor. If we focused our resources on not making them poor, then we would be decreasing the chances of the children needing protection.

To give you one example, we were called in by a school—because we have a good relationship with the school—wondering why this single mom with four kids, two of whom are school age, were not coming to school. Should they call child protection? Are the kids in need of protection? What is going on? What should they do?

It took us minutes to figure out what was going on when we did a home visit. We found out the problem was that her children had lice. When kids have lice, they can't go to school. Currently in our province, we have some assistance to single parents. They buy them a washer, but they don't buy them a dryer. We know—if any of you have had kids with lice—if you put things in the dryer, you've just solved the problem.

That's how we solved the problem. We did two things for her. First, we raised the resources to buy her a dryer. Second, we gathered up a whole bunch of people in the community who helped her clean up all of her stuff and clean up all of her kids, and then they were able to go to school. Things like that, that could be stereotypes, can be harmful, particularly for single parents who are struggling. Of course, lice medication is usually not covered by anybody, so that's another additional cost. A single parent with four kids would have to make the decision between lice medication versus food.

Also, in the context of what I wanted to express today, there is the direct impact to indigenous families and then there are also the systemic challenges we face. There are a couple of things about that. First, indigenous-led organizations are not funded the same way to do the same work. There is an inequality of funding, yet we know that when indigenous organizations are supported to do the work with our indigenous families, we do have good outcomes. It is still a real challenge for an indigenous organization, like the Ma Mawi Wi Chi Itata Centre, to have funding equality when it comes to delivering services and addressing the needs of people living in poverty.

Another thing is that, other than this table right here, we are often not consulted on what the solutions are. We are often not engaged in a meaningful way at decision-making tables that directly result in policy-making. Organizations, like the Ma Mawi Wi Chi Itata Centre and many other indigenous-led organizations, are often not consulted, so we do appreciate the opportunity here today. Historically, it has been the case that we're not at the tables. There are other people that are speaking on our behalf.

There are some very real realities for indigenous families. They have unique challenges that may not be fully understood by mainstream society. I think we can sometimes just think that it's not that serious. I'm sure you heard earlier about the difficulty with getting housing and then safe housing for families. Poverty reduction does start with having food and a home, just having your basic needs met.

Another challenge is the lack of opportunities for supportive employment and training programs because it's one thing to get training to get the job; it's another to get the support you need to keep the job. That is particularly important for indigenous people.

We often don't get the jobs. This is a harsh reality, particularly for single parents who may have a number of small children. One gets sick and you're on at least a four-week hiatus making sure that you're caring for them because they usually can't go to school or to day care, so many parents leave their jobs. We need to build a stronger safety net for single parents who are really trying to better their situation.

Then there is the lack of programs that focus on building capacity. Rather than acknowledging us for all the things that are wrong with indigenous people, we need to start looking at all the things that are our strengths and the things that we contribute. It's a different kind of conversation to have with people.

In our community care centres, when people are coming in they may be coming in hungry, but they're also coming in because they're valued and respected when they come in. They're not coming in because they're going to go see the mental health worker over there, or their addiction worker over there, or the parole officer over there. It is not about acknowledging what is wrong with you. It is about shifting the service to a strength- and value-based model, which has far-reaching and more positive outcomes because then people have a sense of belonging and over time, they will resolve the challenges they have.

I am aware that part of your agenda, and part of where you're going to be speaking and learning more about is in Manitoba. We have the Winnipeg Poverty Reduction Council, which, along with the Ma Mawi Wi Chi Itata Centre, has been very supportive. I understand you're meeting with them.

They talk about 10 practical things and that if you work on these 10 things you could make some real progress: achieving independence through income, accessing responsive human services, having a home, getting strong, getting around, learning for life, thriving and healthy environment, feeling safe and included, expressing ourselves, and feeding ourselves well.

These are about making sure we're taking care of people's basic needs, creating a safety net when they can't, and having the resources to do so.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

From the Social Planning Council of Winnipeg, Josh Brandon.

[Josh Brandon, Community Animator, Social Planning Council of Winnipeg]

Good morning, and thanks so much for the opportunity to present before you today.

The Social Planning Council of Winnipeg is a community-based organization. We provide leadership in improving social conditions through effective solutions, progressive policy community development, and partnership.

We've been working to develop solutions for combatting poverty here in Winnipeg since 1919, so we're one of the organizations that came out of the social movements around the general strike here in Winnipeg. We have a long history of working in these areas and are really pleased to have the opportunity to present before you.

I know the work that you're doing is quite broad, and in my remarks today, I'd like to focus on just one area of the different areas that your research is focused on here. I'm going to be looking at housing, and particularly the circumstances around housing as a poverty issue in Winnipeg.

Winnipeg is a city with unique challenges and resources, but what's applicable in Winnipeg does have relevance right across the country.

Housing is the largest expense for people living in poverty. One of the things that I do as a community animator is that I work with a number of coalitions of groups and organizations working on poverty in Manitoba. One of them is Make Poverty History Manitoba. We bring together about a hundred different community organizations, and consistently when you talk to community groups, the number one need people have is housing. It comes right to the top of the list. That's not surprising, because for most people living in poverty, that's their largest expense.

In the 2011 census data, 37% of renters in Winnipeg lived in housing that took up more than 30% of their income, and 50% lived in housing that met one of CMHC's core housing criteria of being in poor condition, overcrowded, or unaffordable. It's a really important issue for low-income people here in Winnipeg.

In recent years in Winnipeg, we've had this kind of long trajectory. In Winnipeg, like most other cities across Canada, since the 1990s, there's been a decline of availability of rental housing. There's been some good news actually in the last few years. There has been more construction of rental housing since about 2013, and you're starting to see some pick up of availability. Vacancy rates have moderated, which is really good news.

Unfortunately, the housing that is available often is housing that's unaffordable for low-income people. It's really interesting if you look at it by quartile. This is probably true in other cities as well as across Canada. The housing that's being built is nowhere near what's available for low-income families. It's difficult for even moderate income or middle-income families to afford a lot of the rental construction that is available.

We're finding the housing that is available at the cheapest quartile of housing often has vacancy rates less than half of what's available at the higher more expensive quartiles of housing. This problem is particularly acute when you look at particular types of housing, and the housing that's most in need. For example, in Winnipeg, the fastest growing portions of our population are newcomers coming here often with very large families.

At the Social Planning Council, we've been working very closely with a lot of the refugee families that are recently being settled from Syria and other places. They're coming with very large families, six or seven people often in the family. That means we need larger bedroom sizes.

Indigenous Manitobans are the next fastest-growing population in Winnipeg with extended family sizes, different family structures, and sometimes larger family sizes as well.

We're finding that there's very low availability for three-bedroom rental units in Winnipeg. The numbers from the October 2015 CMHC survey show that for affordable three-bedroom units, there was a vacancy rate of only 0.7%. I did the calculations for that and what that show is that there were approximately four affordable three-bedroom units in all of Winnipeg. Thinking about all the families coming to settle in Winnipeg and make their homes here, making it affordable is a real challenge.

Similarly, we found there were only approximately 27 affordable bachelor units in Winnipeg, using those numbers. At the same time, the October 2015 street census found that 1,400 individuals were experiencing homelessness in Winnipeg, but there were only 27 affordable units.

There's a real disparity. A lot of it is because the federal government disengaged from housing for a number of decades. We're really pleased the federal government started to reinvest last year. In the 2016 budget, they started to put back housing with a short-term, two-year commitment. What we really need is a longer-term commitment. We need a 10-year housing plan and a long-term housing strategy to rebuild our housing and social housing stock across Canada. Really, we need at least $2 billion to be spent annually to start to rebuild that housing stock, and the priority should be given to social housing.

One of the problems we have seen with the investment in affordable housing agreement here in Manitoba is that it doesn't allow for investment in social housing. It's geared primarily towards construction of affordable housing. Again, it's those deep subsidies that are needed for a lot of the families coming here.

There are opportunities with CMHC. They've made about $18 billion in profit over the last 10 years. If that money were reinvested back into social housing stock, then we could make a serious dent in the housing need here in Manitoba and across Canada.

The other major problem is around repairs. A lot of the existing housing in Manitoba is in need of repair. This is particularly the case with social housing. There's a backlog of approximately $500 million that needs to be spent to bring up the social housing stock in Manitoba. Canada has committed $33 million over two years, but a longer-term commitment is needed to help erase that gap.

I'd also like to say that the backlog for repair on Manitoba first nations housing is even greater. Our primary focus at the Social Planning Council of Winnipeg is on housing here in Winnipeg, but we understand that there is a $2-billion deficit on first nations housing in Manitoba alone. We know these problems are interconnected. I did some research working with the Eagle Urban Transition Centre, a group that helps indigenous people coming to Winnipeg. It helps them find housing and navigate the system.

We found that there are a lot of people who are leaving poor housing conditions on first nations, where there is overcrowding and deteriorating housing, or they're being flooded out of their homes. They come to Winnipeg and they're finding that there isn't good housing here either. Housing is unaffordable and they don't have the supports to navigate the system. We need to see that these problems are interconnected.

There also needs to be flexibility across Canada. The housing market in Winnipeg is not the same as in hotter markets like Toronto or Vancouver. There are different housing needs. We need to recognize that one size is not going to fit all right across the country. There needs to be flexibility in how the programs are rolled out.

We know that here in Manitoba there have been some problems with housing that's been constructed according to deadline, and as a result, the housing that gets built isn't always what's needed in terms of the right time, the right space, or the family type.

I just want to say one more thing. I talked a lot about the bricks and mortar of housing. We also recognize that housing is an income issue. People live in poor housing because they have insufficient incomes to afford good-quality housing. We can do more around income-support programs as well.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you, Mr. Brandon.

To start us off, we have Mr. Zimmer.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for appearing this morning. My questions are going to be predominantly to Diane Redsky.

You say that it takes all day to be poor. I was a former high school teacher and taught a lot of aboriginal kids. I mentioned before that I didn't see them as being any different from my regular students. They were all my students and they all are human beings. I would say it's really easy to treat people as equals when you see each person as your child or somebody's son or daughter. That's the perspective I had.

You mentioned missing and murdered indigenous women. That affects my riding dramatically. I represent Prince George, plus to the north. It's a huge concern. I can't imagine having a daughter who's 12 and having her lost, especially in that way.

You talked about employment and training programs as part of the solution to reducing poverty. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I see it this way. It isn't just a job. It's hope, it's opportunity, and it's freedom. That's how I see it myself. My son just got a job as an apprentice, and his whole life changed because now he can buy a truck and he has money to spend. You know what it's like to have a job. It's a big change in life.

From your perspective, with employment and training programs specifically—and you can even expand to a larger extent—if you could wave the magic wand, big question, what would you do to change the current system? We're targeting aboriginal kids especially, because that's a huge unemployment area, and it seems to be a pattern there. What would you change?

[Diane Redsky]

In regard to education and training, I would invest in those indigenous-led organizations that are already doing great work. In Winnipeg we have the Centre for Aboriginal Human Resource Development, CAHRD, which is an indigenous-led organization that has been working on building the capacity of indigenous people so that they are employable. The difference between that and what you talk of as an apprenticeship program is that CAHRD understands that many of our people are in trauma still, for a variety of reasons. There is continued racism, so even in some sectors, where they may be training for a job, they are not going to get the job because it's typically non-indigenous people who are getting it. That is a reality for the sector, and it includes the trades.

My magic wand would have more indigenous-led organizations, such as CAHRD, that continue to lead in the area of doing trauma-informed service and building the right supports around an individual so that they have the proper protective factors and the proper skills and tools. Then, when they are in mainstream society and are working, they have a shot, and they're not, in the first week or the first day, losing their jobs right off the bat. There would be training programs that are really going to honour the experience and the reality of an indigenous person in Canada.

In my opinion, we have another generation or two to go that will still need those trauma-informed and culturally appropriate services.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

One of the witnesses I brought to committee was a young guy who started a company, Kory Wood. He's 27 years old and comes from meagre circumstances. I just met his mother on the plane coming out here. She was so proud of him having appeared at committee, but I think the big difference I saw was that there are two different kinds of thought within the thought processes of aboriginal kids. There are those who have a positive outlook and hope and feel they can change things and become whatever they want to be, and there are those who are stuck in the rut of what has happened in the past.

The ones who are successful were able to get out of the rut, I guess, and that's what we're trying to do, help them get out of that rut as much as we can. I guess what you're saying is help us get out of the rut. I applaud you for your efforts there.

Specifically with regard to aboriginal women, we've seen tragic situations of abuse, systemic and generational. What would you suggest, in terms of poverty too, because that's the last thing? It's difficult. They're in a dark place. A person might be overwhelmed by the kids and difficult circumstances. Again, with the magic wand that you have, how would you help that side of society? How would you help those ladies see a bright future for their lives and get out of poverty?

[Diane Redsky]

The answer is very complex—

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

It is, yes.

[Diane Redsky]

—because sometimes, and we're not blaming her for her circumstances, the system puts women into these difficult circumstances. So chances are, particularly if you're living in Winnipeg, you were most likely connected to child welfare at some point, which creates a lack of opportunity and a lack of the safety net that we all enjoy within our families. When we need help, we can have all hands on deck, and many of our families are not.... If one is struggling, they're all struggling, and it's a question of who's struggling the most. It's a survival reality for many indigenous families.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Would you say there's a need for a support structure? You're saying there is a need for the funds There's the need to buy food and pay rent, but it sounds like you're saying that the support structure is what's lacking, that mother and grandma influence helping the mom along when there's an issue raising the kids.

[Diane Redsky]

They may or may not be there because of historical factors of us reclaiming our understanding and experience of being in a relationship. Relationships for us are harder than they are for other people because we've been removed from our families. We've been isolated generationally. I'm only first generation of a residential school survivor, and that is the reality still of many people. My mother went to residential school, and there are a lot of things that go with that.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

How do we get from there? We know that it has happened. Through truth and reconciliation, we're trying to repair damaged relationships, but how do we get from where they're at now to the future? Very quickly, please.

[Diane Redsky]

To me that's where the easy answer is. I believe the indigenous community needs to lead that, in partnership, of course. We need to lead that, to define that, and be funded adequately in order to address the issues that are facing our community. It's about building from the inside out. We need the opportunity to do that, and it's not going to happen overnight. It has to happen over a long period of time and it will involve multiple people.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

Now over to Mr. Long, please.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our presenters this morning.

Ms. Redsky, I am moved by the plight of indigenous communities right across the country. Presenter after presenter who we've had over the last 20 or so weeks tells the same story.

You said in your presentation that you make 300 lunches daily. Have you seen any progress at all over the last few years with respect to innovation? Are the numbers just continuing to be the same? Are they growing? Are there things happening like social enterprise and other things in your community to try to pull people out of that cycle?

Obviously, we all know it's generational, but could you comment on whether you've see any progress over the last while? Has the Canada child benefit helped? I'll get you started with that.

[Diane Redsky]

First, I would agree that, absolutely, the child benefit helps, and it's not clawed back, which is extremely helpful to families. As food goes up, no other money goes up. If you are on social assistance—and it has been that way for a really long time, with no increases to assist families—you are still faced with having to make the decision, “Do I pay rent, or do I buy food?” You don't buy food, so where are you going to go to get that food? You can go to organizations like Ma Mawi. It's a vicious cycle that's very hard to get out of.

That being said, organizations like Ma Mawi, which are on the front lines, focusing on their strengths and building their capacity to increase their skills and their voice, make a huge difference, because the people who have come in.... Ma Mawi has 200 staff, and almost every single one of them has come to Ma Mawi for service, and then volunteered, worked part time, gone back to university, came back, and is working for us or continues to work for us.

More organizations that operate with that philosophy of creating opportunities within the community are really going to have an impact.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

I'm stating the obvious. Obviously, indigenous communities and groups have been woefully underfunded for a long while, but—to my colleague's point across the table here—it's not always just about more money and more funding. Do you see other opportunities with respect to innovation and other ways to break that cycle? Has there been innovation?

[Diane Redsky]

Yes. That's one of the areas in which the Ma Mawi Wi Chi Itata Centre specializes. You call it innovation. We call it indigenous traditional knowledge, where we are doing things differently. For example, we have a program called family group conferencing, which changes child welfare because it changes the decision-making in the child protection from the child welfare agency to the family. We're actually reducing the kids coming into care and preventing kids from coming into care in the first place. That's done through a model we call family group conferencing.

It's referred to as innovation, but much of the work that's being done and led by indigenous organizations is innovative. It really is going back to who we are as indigenous people.