Human Resources Committee on Feb. 16th, 2017

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

We're going to go to Glen Motz for the first round of questions.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to everyone presenting today.

Our first round of questions, specifically—and our chair brought this up a week or so ago in committee—has to go mostly to you, Mayor Clugston, with respect to the city's role, the municipality's role in developing housing, and what that looks like as a bureaucratic process, throughout the whole land donation and development process, and what can sometimes be impediments to development. How are you guys navigating that in Medicine Hat?

[Ted Clugston]

I get asked that question a fair bit, especially with Nimbyism. We didn't experience any of that. I frankly have never had a call from someone saying not to build affordable housing in their neighbourhood. A lot of our affordable housing looks just like regular rental stock, so people either didn't realize we were doing it or accepted it.

As well, I think the city has had a lot of success in that, of course, we talk about our utilities all the time, but we do have a land and properties division. Whether you like it or not—and the private sector doesn't—we are the largest land developer in the city of Medicine Hat. We hold thousands of acres of land stock, so we were able to take advantage. Most of the funding partnerships are a one-third to two-thirds model. The municipalities have a difficult time coming up with their one-third, but here in Medicine Hat we had great success because we had the land, so that one-third of our donation would be a land donation, and we've had a lot of success with that.

I think what most levels of government, including municipal, want to see is quick wins. They want to see something that is shovel-ready. The other levels of government want to fund affordable housing projects, but perhaps other municipalities couldn't get the projects done as quickly as we could. I think we benefited in that we were a shovel-ready city.

We are an independent city. We are a can-do city. We've always had this kind of frontier attitude, and we just take charge and have action.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you.

I think one of the things I'd like to hear about and the committee might like to hear about is how in some municipalities there might be red tape and exorbitant fees with respect to the development of these sorts of properties so that monies that come in through government funding are then wasted on the municipality's fee structure.

You talk about being nimble and responsive to those particular development requests. How does that look?

[Ted Clugston]

Frankly, it isn't an issue here, to tell you the truth. Our planning department has a fantastic turnaround time, sometimes 48 hours on projects, and as I said, the Nimbyism, not in my backyard, just didn't exist, so we didn't have to go through perhaps a subdivision development appeal process in which neighbours got up in arms against a project.

Our chamber of commerce has been a very strong advocate for a red tape reduction policy, and we've taken a lot of their recommendations. This hasn't been an issue in Medicine Hat, frankly.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Do you play that out to other municipalities? This is Medicine Hat. Is there something you guys are doing as a city that can potentially be applied to other municipalities that might aid in their development if the same circumstances were to exist?

[Ted Clugston]

That's a difficult one, because Medicine Hat is so completely unique. This is what I talk about all the time across the country. The first question I ask when I'm speaking to other politicians is whether their city owns an oil company, a gas distribution company, an electric generation company, or a land and property development company. The answer is no.

Sometimes I find when I'm speaking with other politicians and people across the country that we have nothing in common. I'm sorry to say that, but frankly, we are unique here. I talk to other mayors and they're dealing with needles in their parks—that's their biggest issue—or skyrocketing crime rates, whereas I'm talking about the price of oil.

I have a difficult time, but really I think the only thing we can say as a city to other municipalities is that it can be done and hoped for and to make it easier to access.

[Celina Symmonds]

I think the piece that's really important for municipalities to understand is that politicians need to realize that, overall, we are there to support, listen, and provide funding, but at the end of the day the community really has the answers.

I guess my advice to municipal, provincial, and federal leaders is to go to your community, because the community will always have the answers. The housing society will work above and beyond to make sure those things happen so they can make their projects go forward. As politicians, you really have to think about who the people in the community are who know and then get them engaged, and you will see projects happen very quickly.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you.

To paraphrase that, I would say, let government get out of the way and let communities do what they need to do.

Dr. Henning, thank you. I appreciate the passion with which you approach the whole issue of Thrive and how...you have some history. We've chatted about that in various forums in the past. I appreciate that an institution of learning is actively involved at a leadership level in developing a Thrive concept for poverty reduction. I want to applaud the leadership of your group in joining the collective community to do that.

What larger role do you see the college playing? I know Thrive is part of it, but do you see a role different from what you're currently doing, in an ideal world? You talked briefly about engaging students. What does that look like, ideally?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

A brief answer, please....

[Dr. Denise Henning]

Thank you for your compliment. I appreciate that. This is so not about me. This is about “we”.

When I think about what the college is doing.... We've done our research, looking at the increase in the aging population over the next 35 years. We've looked at the increase in poverty that we are experiencing, not only from our community but from our student body. What I can honestly say is that the key to breaking this cycle of poverty is education. Education has to be new, integrated, and developed in a new, innovative way that provides experiential learning opportunities.

The language around poverty needs to change. That's what we are challenging with our students being involved. It's not “those” people. It's “we” people, because every one of us is impacted by poverty and homelessness. We're all impacted by it. We need to see that we bring strength to the solution. The college has developed three initiatives. One of them is called the generations project. We hope to bring a hub together for all of the volunteer organizations and use all of that as an opportunity for experiential learning.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

Now we go to MP Long.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, in New Brunswick time, to our presenters. Thanks for your passion on this topic.

I'll start with Mayor Clugston and Councillor Symmonds. Obviously, I haven't been in the city very long, but I love the culture. I think something you could share with other cities across the country is the progressive culture you have here. It's contagious. There is no question about it.

Mr. Clugston, you talked about the carbon pricing and your concern with that. Can you give me some ideas as to how you would like to see carbon pricing come back to people in need to help alleviate that?

[Ted Clugston]

Don't charge it in the first place. I'm sorry.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

You don't have any ideas whatsoever as to how that could come back to help people in credits, and help people in need.

[Ted Clugston]

You are in Alberta. Medicine Hat.... I have very strong opinions on this. We are a leader in renewable energy, and as a municipality, we did it without applying a carbon tax.

We are waiting here, in Medicine Hat, for the new provincial programs that are hopefully going to.... I've accepted the fact that the carbon tax is a new reality in this country at the present time. We're hoping to have those projects here in Medicine Hat.

I'm afraid some of the decisions on the carbon tax, on the rebates, are going to become political decisions. This is the sunniest city in Canada—I opened my remarks with this—and if I see all the photovoltaics going way up north to Fort McMurray, I will know there have been political decisions made. I hope it is science-based.

What I struggle with—and I'm getting political—is politicians making policy without a thorough understanding of the science. Everybody got a rebate already, before the carbon tax was even charged.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Right. Again, though, I won't get into a philosophical discussion with you about carbon pricing.

[Ted Clugston]

Well, you asked me, so....

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

I will say that rebates and credits back to those in need is certainly one way it can be revenue-neutral, but we won't get into that.

That said, alignment of government is key. From the municipal standpoint, then to a provincial standpoint, and to a federal standpoint, how important is it that all three levels are on the same page with respect to poverty reduction?

[Ted Clugston]

It's absolutely important. I think Councillor Symmonds talked earlier about government getting out of the way. I always talk about ending homelessness, and I get asked to travel the country. If they want me to come to Vancouver, for instance, and tell them how to solve their problem, the first thing I will tell them is that I don't know. I know how we did it in Medicine Hat, but they know Vancouver better than I do, so it will take local leadership. I will not walk into their city and tell them they're doing it wrong. As Councillor Symmonds mentioned, leave it to the people on the ground who actually know.

In terms of municipal government, if other levels of government just gave the municipalities the money and allowed them to spend it on infrastructure or whatever it is, we would be so much further ahead. Frankly, someone in Ottawa doesn't know which sidewalks need to be fixed here in this city. We do. The closer you are to the problem, the more likely you are to make the correct decision.

We do have to work together. Municipalities only have 8% of tax revenue, yet provide all the services.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

As mayor and councillor, you obviously get multiple funding requests. How do you decide to hand out that money? In Saint John, New Brunswick, certainly we get a lot of duplication, a lot of people asking for really the same service. How do you, as mayor and councillor, decide who gets your money?

[Celina Symmonds]

I think what has been important is that we have committees to decide that. We have a social development advisory committee, which is made up of community members who receive FCSS applications as well as MSI applications from not-for-profit groups, and those people make those decisions.

As part of our poverty reduction plan, we do need to look at funding forums and look at duplication, look at how to funnel funding effectively, because I think it is a huge issue across Canada. We are all doing great work, but how much of that work is actually ending poverty? I work at a food bank, and I can tell you that the two executive directors of the food bank believe that food banks are not the way to end poverty, so we're changing the way we do things. I think we have to look for innovative solutions. Funding has to be directed to those things, and it needs to be done as a community.

Again, we do have the social development advisory board, and they do vet all of them before they come to council. That's how we make our decisions.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you.

Ms. Desjarlais-deKlerk and Ms. Henning, can you speak to how important social enterprise is with respect to poverty reduction? Can you just elaborate on what you're doing or what the college is doing about social enterprise?

[Dr. Kristen Desjarlais-deKlerk]

Social enterprise is extremely important for poverty reduction. I'm part of a research team from Westman centre for real estate studies out of the University of Calgary's Haskayne School of Business. Haskayne, Westman centre in particular, has tried to shift the discussion in Calgary from affordable housing into housing affordability, because it's about sustainability. It's about finding market solutions to these poverty problems, to the housing problems.

As far as what the college can do, there's a lot.

[Dr. Denise Henning]

We're doing a lot of things. We have a very exhaustive group of people who are working at the college. We have been very innovative in not only the way in which we approach education but also the way in which we approach entrepreneurship. We approach opportunities for volunteerism with the expectation of generations going forward and being good, productive citizens who give back to the community.

I hear you talking a lot about how we can duplicate this, how we can make this happen. I can tell you that the first way to make these things happen is to go to the community, let people get together who are involved and engaged with this, and let them build on their strengths. If you focus on the problem to the point that the problem becomes all-consuming, you'll never get anywhere, because you're trying to solve a problem instead of focusing on what you already have.

Medicine Hat has amazing people who are working collectively to see things happen, not only with the ability to just give volunteer time, as in “Let's just go and meet somewhere”, but also for the purpose of ending something. It's a bold statement. It's a provocative statement. You must be bold and you must be provocative, because we will see poverty increasing in our country.