Human Resources Committee on April 4th, 2017

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Okay. With respect to Bill C-243, are there any particular amendments you would like to see or any changes to the bill?

[Dr. Nicola Cherry]

My reading of it is simply that there should be discussions about the strategy for setting up such a national maternity assistance program. I certainly would support those discussions. I do not feel it is appropriate or my place to say what the conclusions will be from having had those discussions. I think there are lots of issues.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Okay. Thank you.

Mr. Tadic, the head offices of JDI—Irving Shipbuilding—are in my riding of Saint John—Rothesay. We've had many meetings with the company about increasing the number of women in the trades. You mentioned the project underway now with respect to Irving Shipbuilding. You also mentioned that only 5% of welders are female.

[Dan Tadic]

That is correct.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Can you describe to me some initiatives that you are undertaking, beyond that comment, to attract more females to the trade?

[Dan Tadic]

Through our Canadian Welding Association Foundation charity we have a special focus on women in trades. We organize camps specifically to attract and recruit women. Last year we organized more than 50 camps, and I think this year there will be more than 100 camps. We participate at the Skills Canada national competitions and we talk with thousands of women and girls about the welding trades and professions. We're trying, then, to engage them at many events that we participate in. We actively seek women and provide the international support they may need, such as by funding scholarships and the various groups we sponsor.

We work with an organization called Indspire, as an example. We have given it $300,000 over a three-year period to provide scholarships for students. In addition, we give to students something in the range of 200, I believe, $2,500 scholarships across Canada.

We had our annual CanWeld Conference this past October in Edmonton and covered the entire travel costs and hotel accommodations of, I believe, 17 women at the conference. They had exposure to the industry and had an opportunity to see some of the technology on display at the trade show and engage with other people from industry who have similar experiences and challenges.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

How are you promoting this? I happen to have a friend who is a welder, a female, and even she laments that the message doesn't seem to be getting out there.

[Dan Tadic]

We are probably the most engaged organization of any organization in this country. We have a membership base. We have over 400 high schools throughout Canada that are engaged with us. Those are the high schools that we provide with electronic welding helmets, for example. We purchase equipment, we purchase supplies, we provide funding, we provide training for educators, so we do a lot of engagement. We organize an annual welding educators conference. That's coming up on May 29 and 30 in Winnipeg this year. We try to educate educators about advances in welding technologies so they can pass on the information to their students.

We're launching a new initiative this summer to improve our apprenticeship training across Canada. The purpose of this is to improve the method of training of apprentices. Apprenticeship methods of training at a company location haven't changed in centuries. Most organizations focus on 20% of the training taking place in the classroom, and 80% of apprenticeship training being done on the shop floor, in plants. This is the area that we are going to focus on. This is the area that needs support. We're doing a five-year study of apprenticeship training to try to introduce a new method, a new model of apprenticing.

I have been talking to various politicians about this and to various apprenticeship organizations that run the welding program. The CCDA organization, for example, loves this program. They are the organization responsible for Red Seal programs across Canada. We're actively engaged with them, and they like what we're doing. Industry loves what we're doing as well, and they're very supportive. This new model can be used as a template for other trades as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you. That's time.

Next, we have Madam Sansoucy for six minutes. Go ahead.

[Brigitte Sansoucy, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Chair, I want to thank all of our witnesses.

Mr. Lafrance, although the sponsor of the bill decided to withdraw clauses 6 and 7, it seems really relevant that our committee first determine what preventive withdrawal is, before we even support consultations. You pointed out that this program has been in existence in Quebec for 36 years, and that your organization has acquired a certain expertise in the matter.

This is my perspective: it is important that we establish that preventive withdrawal is not maternity leave, and that it is the working conditions that present a risk and not the pregnancy itself.

Your testimony reminded me, as someone who in fact benefited from preventive withdrawal, that I had a physician who dealt specifically with my pregnancy. However, the physician at the health centre who evaluated my condition and recommended preventive withdrawal did not provide care during my pregnancy.

You also provided important information about the fact that the employment insurance plan is not the proper vehicle for this program. We know that in Quebec preventive withdrawal leave is funded by employer contributions to the CNESST, the Commission des normes, de l'équité, de la santé et de la sécurité du travail. We often tend to forget that since the beginning of the 1990s, the federal government no longer contributes to the employment insurance fund. That fund is a vehicle employers and employees have given themselves through their contributions to deal with job loss. This is also an area of provincial jurisdiction.

This leads me to my first question. We know that in Quebec there is a program known as Pour une maternité sans danger, the safe motherhood program. However, I would like you to explain, for the benefit of my colleagues especially, how the Quebec pregnant workers' preventive withdrawal program works.

[Roch Lafrance]

It is relatively simple. The program outlined in the bill is similar to the Quebec program, for instance in clause 6, which refers to a doctor's certificate, and reassignment.

As you said, the first step is that the woman must be followed by a physician during her pregnancy. If her doctor thinks that her work may present a risk, the physician will contact the public health branch which has offices in all of the regions. He will consult a specialist in that area. That doctor will assess the risks related to the woman's profession. For instance, welders have been the object of considerable study. If a female welder is in a job that respects the prevention standards in effect in Quebec, the business she works for is already known and environmental analyses will have been done. The doctor will be able to use that data to find out which products that worker is exposed to, and to see whether this presents a danger to her pregnancy or to the unborn child. So there are specific analyses. If none have been done in that particular business, in a few days, or very quickly, technicians or analysts will be sent to perform those analyses in the workplace.

Once the position has been analyzed, the specialist will recommend to the attending physician that a preventive withdrawal be authorized, or not, from a given week of the pregnancy. Will the withdrawal take place immediately, or later? The physician will issue a certificate. The worker will present it to her employer, who will decide whether he can modify her position to eliminate the risks. If not, the worker will be assigned to other duties where she will not be exposed to the danger. If the employer cannot do so, or does not want to—he is not obliged to do so—the worker will stop working and will receive benefits from the CNESST. The compensation is equivalent to 90% of her net salary, and is not taxable. It will not reduce the parental or maternity benefits she could be entitled to in the future.

I do want to point out that among the preventive withdrawals that are accepted, less than half are complete work withdrawals. About one quarter are reassignments. The worker will continue to work in a modified position, or in another one. For about another quarter of these withdrawals, the workers will be reassigned for a certain period before a total withdrawal. Not all workers totally withdraw from the workplace. It depends. The bill under study refers to the last 15 weeks of pregnancy. In Quebec, 95% of preventive withdrawals are granted before that. We have to assess the risk when it is present. Take the example of the bacteriological risks in a measles epidemic. If some of the workers in children's hospitals and day cares are not immunized, we have to react immediately. We cannot wait 15 weeks before the end of the pregnancy. It would be too late.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you.

I'm afraid that's time. I'm sorry.

Next up we have MP Dhillon, please.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Good afternoon. Thank you everybody for being here today.

My questions are open and they're for anybody who wants to answer. Do you have any information with regard to the percentage of women who are unable to work during their pregnancies because of the hazardous nature of their job function and the inability of their employers to accommodate them? If so, could you please share this with the committee?

[Dan Tadic]

I'll say a few things. We don't have any statistical data that indicates what those percentages may be. However, we have a declining birth rate in this country, and we rely on immigration to sustain our economy and to keep our economy growing. We should do everything in our power to encourage women to have more babies, because I think that for the prosperity of this country and for our human community, we need to do anything that we possibly can to support women in ways that we're not supporting them now.

I'm not sure what the right answer is in terms of the funding that's currently available in this bill, and whether that's adequate. Should we be doing more? I think we need to do more consultation with women on this topic to see what other things we could do. I think this is the first step, and it's a good one.

[Roch Lafrance]

In Quebec, we have some statistics. Among women whose pregnancies are carried to full term, 40% will opt for preventive withdrawal. As I explained, when I use the term preventive withdrawal, that also includes women who may be assigned to other duties. They will continue to work during their entire pregnancy. Among all of those who will give birth—and those whose pregnancy is interrupted are not included in these numbers—40% will benefit from preventive withdrawal at a certain point. So a lot of women are affected.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Fine, thank you.

Does anybody else wish to answer that?

[Dr. Nicola Cherry]

Could I come in to answer that question? This is Nicola Cherry. Amongst the welders in the women we studied, over half weren't reassigned. They stopped work without reassignment, and they stopped work at about 17 weeks' pregnancy, so they stopped very early if they were not reassigned. It is a major problem for them finding income during pregnancy when they can't continue the work.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

In your opinion, what are the main barriers preventing employers, especially those in the trades, from accommodating pregnancy-related needs? How could these barriers be overcome?

Sorry, did you hear my question?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Who are you asking?

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

I was asking Dr. Cherry in Alberta.

[Dr. Nicola Cherry]

Sorry, I had no idea the question was to me.

To some extent, as Mr. Lafrance said, it is the employer's job to find the reassignment. If the employer has no wish to keep the woman at work, he or she won't try very hard necessarily to reassign. We do find the reassignment is much less among welders and electricians, whether it's because of the specialist nature of the work.... A welder is highly paid for skilled work. There may not be appropriate other work within a welding shop that a woman who's in later pregnancy can do.

We haven't talked yet about differences essentially between the physical demands of the job and chemical exposures. A woman who is a welder, even if she can be reassigned away from the physical hard work of welding, may still be exposed to fumes. That is also a problem.

I'm sure Dan Tadic can comment on that.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Okay.

What measures are needed to ensure employers respect occupational health and safety requirements, as well as to accommodate pregnancy-related needs even when preventive withdrawal benefits are available?

[Dr. Nicola Cherry]

You clearly wouldn't need preventive withdrawal if the workplace was wholly safe, but at the moment, most of the occupational exposure limits and regulations in Canada have been based on the work of men and the susceptibilities of men rather than women. One of the major issues is to make sure the recommendations about workplaces take account of the fact that increasing numbers of people in trades are women, and that they may be affected differently, pregnant or not, from men by workplace exposures.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you.

You have 10 seconds left, so not really enough time to answer.

Up next we have MP Ruimy for six minutes.

[Dan Ruimy, Liberal, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Thank you very much, and thank you, everybody, for being here today. It was interesting testimony. I'm going to start off with Mr. Dan Tadic.

You had mentioned a million—did I get that right?—people needed by 2020.