Evidence of meeting #63 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was audit.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Ferguson  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
Glenn Wheeler  Principal, Office of the Auditor General

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Thank you very much.

Now over to MP Boulerice.

5 p.m.

NDP

Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Your audit showed that the partnerships between the federal program and the provincial and territorial programs are essential to the transfer of information.

What could the government do to consolidate these partnerships and create new ones where necessary? Has the department developed a commitment plan as to the partnerships between the government and the provinces relating to the transfer of information?

5 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Michael Ferguson

The observation was that the department had committed to working with the provinces and territories. Actually, at the time of the audit, it had made that commitment to work with them to establish agreements by December 2014, and it was primarily to get information about any employers who may have violated provincial or territorial labour laws or health and safety standards. It was a way to get information from the provinces or territories about any employers who might be employing temporary foreign workers when those employers already had a record of perhaps not respecting labour laws.

As for what they should do, again, they need to work with the provinces and territories to try to get some agreement in place to get access to that information, because that information will help them understand which employers are most at risk. That can help them, in their inspection program, focus on employers who need the most encouragement to make sure that they're living by the requirements of the program.

5 p.m.

NDP

Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

As to the approval process in cases of non-compliance, what measures could be taken to speed things up? That would make things easier for a lot of people.

5 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Michael Ferguson

We found that there were 40 files with a recommended finding of non-compliance against the employer. At the time we did the audit, there were 40 files where the department's own work indicated that the employer had not complied with the program.

To get to the final decision that yes, an employer was not compliant, was taking too long. Some of these files had been approved, for example, in regional offices in January 2016, and by August 2016, they still hadn't made their way through the system.

Again, I think the first thing is just having an indicator in place. If there is a recommendation of non-compliance, they should be tracking that to determine how long it takes to get to a final decision. I think just having that type of an indicator would probably help to speed up the process, because they would see for themselves that it was taking too long.

Our recommendation, in paragraph 5.87, was that they “should explore options to streamline and speed up its process”. The department agreed. The response says that more timely decisions on inspections for temporary foreign worker program employers would be done by June 2017. Presumably, they should already have something in place to help them understand whether they are being more timely on this item.

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Thank you.

There is a quality assurance program to help officers select applications that truly meet the program requirements. In your opinion, what should be included in this quality assurance program to improve the effectiveness of the current system?

5:05 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Michael Ferguson

A standard quality assurance framework includes the regular review of program officers' decisions. It's going in and looking at how the program officers are making decisions. Are they properly trained? Are they using the information they should be using? Are their decisions reviewed by their supervisors? Would the same decision be made in Alberta as in another province? Are all the provinces using the same criteria, and are the officers applying the program in a consistent way?

All those types of things would be part of the quality assurance framework.

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Thank you.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Thank you very much.

We'll move over to MP Sangha, please.

September 28th, 2017 / 5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Ramesh Sangha Liberal Brampton Centre, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Ferguson, for coming today and giving the information in this valuable report.

Generally, departments should have used better questions to ensure that they were filling the temporary foreign workers shortage with certain primarily kinds of people, those who reflect that the actual requirement of the labour market is being met. Also, we want Canadians to be hired first, before hiring the temporary foreign workers.

What are some of the consequences of this liberal use of the labour market?

5:05 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Michael Ferguson

Again, in terms of the effect of the program on the labour market, we're saying that the department needs to do that analysis to understand the impact on the labour market: how does this program affect the labour market, how does it affect the ability of Canadians to fill jobs, and how does it affect the wage rates?

That's something we were recommending the department needed to make sure was part of their analysis of how the program was operating.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Ramesh Sangha Liberal Brampton Centre, ON

Do you suggest that some certain data—relevant insurance data, employment data—regarding labour market information is very important to see that temporary foreign workers are being hired properly?

5:05 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Michael Ferguson

We looked at the type of information the department was using to determine what the labour market situation was. We found that within the department, they had put together, let's say, a protocol for sharing information that existed in the department, so employment insurance information or record of employment information. Even though they had agreed, for example, what type of employment insurance information could be shared to determine whether there was really a labour shortage, we found that they were not actually using the employment insurance data.

The program officers weren't using the employment insurance data to make their assessments of applications. Also, a record of employment is a record of how many weeks a person has worked over the past year, but the program officers were only allowed to have access to 90 days of the information on the record of employment.

Because they didn't have the EI data and the complete picture of the record of employment data, they really didn't have a good picture of whether there were Canadians that had been laid off that were collecting employment insurance and had the skill set to fill the jobs.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Ramesh Sangha Liberal Brampton Centre, ON

We agree that's why we need an auditor to do the auditing in such a situation. The department was not using the policies that they were required to use. The government tried to fix those at this time. We've already given the report; the committee has given the report.

This was only done to see that we have a better labour market in Canada so that temporary foreign workers get the jobs and help the labour market to improve the labour market. In your opinion, to what extent are these recent reforms that you have just identified effective in the total labour market?

5:10 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Michael Ferguson

The audit primarily looked at the reforms that were brought in 2014. We haven't looked at any changes to the program that have happened since then. Again, in terms of how the 2014 changes were put in place, as I said before, I think we found a number of weaknesses. The department wasn't doing what it said it needed to do to implement those policies.

One thing that would be very important is that given that they had policy changes that were brought in 2014 and there were some weaknesses with how they implemented those policies, I think they need to be able to demonstrate that any policy changes made after that date are properly implemented. That's given that they have this track record of not necessarily implementing everything they said they were going to implement in the past.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Thank you.

Maybe Mr. Robillard might share some time, but it is his six minutes.

Go ahead, sir.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Thank you, Mark, for your good remarks.

Quebec is one of the four provinces that employs the most workers in high-wage jobs through the temporary foreign workers program. Moreover, Montreal is an important city for film production, image technologies, digital technologies and artificial intelligence.

As to the hiring of temporary foreign workers who have high wages owing to their technical skills, what have you concluded in your analyses? Is there a training gap or a mobility problem among Canadian workers?

5:10 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Michael Ferguson

We didn't get down into that level of detail.

What we were talking about in the report was the need for the department to have labour market information so that it understands where those workforce shortages are, what the reason for them is, and what can be done about them. We didn't get down into the specifics of the reasons. I think what we were saying was that's more the type of information that the department should have so that it understands why there are shortages in certain types of jobs in certain places.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

You have plenty of time.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

The recommendation in paragraph 5.83 of your report reads as follows:

Employment and Social Development Canada should use its expanded powers to increase the scope of its inspections by ensuring that all the relevant conditions are covered. It should also conduct more on-site inspections and explore the option of conducting some without notice, to further enhance its ability to detect non-compliance.

Our government accepted this recommendation.

Our government is taking the necessary steps to follow through on its commitment to better protect vulnerable foreign workers and increase the number of inspections of workplaces where temporary foreign workers are employed. In addition, these inspections will be conducted using an approach that prioritizes the workplaces that are most at risk.

We know that the agriculture sector employs many temporary foreign workers all across the country, especially in Quebec. Your audit goes back to 2013, when the Conservative Party was in power. What kinds of weaknesses did it identify as regards workplace inspections in the agriculture sector?

5:15 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Michael Ferguson

Again, I think we've talked quite a bit about the whole inspection regime and the requirement to have a complete inspection regime including identifying the sectors perhaps that are most at risk, the sectors that need to be examined. Within those sectors, maybe there are certain employers that should be considered perhaps more at risk and need to be examined. They need to use methods other than just desk inspections. They need to use on-site inspections. They need to make sure they are doing interviews of the temporary workers. They need to consider doing more unannounced inspections.

All of those types of parts of the inspection regime are important, and they need to be able to do that on the basis of identifying which sectors need to have those inspections and which employers within those sectors need to have the inspections.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

With regard to foreign workers with advanced technical skills, the report states that “Employment and Social Development Canada should finalize and implement its performance measurement strategy” and “should conduct analyses to determine the temporary foreign worker program’s impact on the labour market.”

Although our government has accepted your recommendation, I would like you to elaborate on the results of your analyses. Specifically, were you able to form an opinion as to the program's impact on the high-tech labour market?

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Answer very briefly, please.

5:15 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General

Michael Ferguson

No. We were not able to, and again, we were indicating that the department needed to be able to do that type of analysis. They weren't able to do it, so we weren't able to do it.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Excellent. Thank you very much.

Now we'll move over to MP Warawa.