Human Resources Committee on Oct. 3rd, 2017

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you.

Now we go to MP Sangha, for four minutes.

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much to all for coming to the committee today and giving this valuable information on seniors.

My question will be to Wanda.

Almost everyone has talked about homeless problems, everybody has talked about the need for seniors regarding indexing the pensions, the maintenance of their houses, recognizing the use of the Internet for seniors, and many other issues like that.

When seniors live in their homes and their children can take care of them, do you suggest that those who will be taking care of the seniors need some sort of caregiving support so they can get incentives to take care of seniors, and fewer seniors will go to senior homes?

[Wanda Morris]

Yes.

CARP is firmly on record as supporting that. Many countries offer a caregivers allowance, in the U.K., Australia, and even in Canada.

Nova Scotia has a program—not well publicized—that individuals can get $100 a week for providing care. It's means-tested, and should be, by both the caregiver and the care provider. It does a number of things. It keeps people in the home, especially someone who has a diagnosis of dementia. They're the most likely to do well. It saves us costs in terms of hospitalization or assisted living, and also prevents the individual from having to draw down their savings to live, or at least not to the same extent, which then will help the caregivers themselves not be destitute when they get to their retirement years.

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Another thing that would be helpful if seniors are able to live in their homes, one of the sort of social sentiments attached to the children who are living there, is that they then learn many things from the seniors. Is it helpful in that way?

[Wanda Morris]

I think so.

One of the reasons that CARP has supported the HomEquity Bank is that's another organization that helps people—especially as they're in their final frail years—access some additional funds to pay for caregivers, for home renovations, to do the things that allow them to stay home.

Many provincial governments provide some level of home care, but what we hear over and over is that it's simply not enough. That doesn't make sense, because from a business point of view it makes so much more sense for us to keep people home where they want to be, where it's cheaper for them to be, and where they will have better outcomes than for them to be prematurely moved to long-term care hospitalization.

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

For four minutes, MP Rachel Blaney.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

Richard, I have a few questions for you.

In my riding, we have a huge housing shortage. We have seniors who are stuck in hospitals and have nowhere to go. We're spending thousands of dollars keeping them in hospital care. We also have seen in the last five years a huge growth of seniors who are either homeless or at risk of homelessness, like we've never seen before.

Your organization has observed an increase in older adults using the shelters since 2014.

Can you tell us a little about that, and how the lack of housing is impacting seniors?

[Richard Shillington]

I think your question relates somewhat to Monsieur Robillard's question about the seniors and the aging within the seniors.

I read the finance minister's book about retirement, and it's quite good. He talks about three stages of retirement: a stage where you're reasonably healthy, maybe it lasts 10 years, when you can still golf; a stage where you're somewhat frail; and then a stage where many people are going to be in some form of long-term care.

I live in the Ottawa area. If you're going into long-term care in Ottawa, you either go to subsidized care of some sort, which doesn't have a great reputation, or something that costs $5,000 a month.

Is that about right?

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Yes, that's right.

[Richard Shillington]

For a substantial proportion of the population, that's just not going to happen, so I think we have some real issues here.

This morning, I was at The Ottawa Mission for three hours. I do it every Tuesday morning, and I play this game. I try to guess.... It's hard to judge the age of low-income people because they age differently, but I'm thinking that 5% to 10% of the people coming to the shelter getting their free meal are seniors.

If you're living on $18,000 or $19,000 a year—and that's assuming they're getting all the benefits they're entitled to—in Ottawa, you're going to be getting free meals wherever you can.

But we haven't talked much about long-term care and that last stage. I think it's around 20%, 25% of seniors who end up dying in a long-term care facility rather than in their home.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much.

I just want to quickly go back to Tammy.

One of the things you talked about was better data collection and information. You talked about it, but how do we gather that and who should be gathering that information?

[Dr. Tammy Schirle]

Right now, we're thinking about the data that's needed to think about measuring seniors' poverty and what people need. We currently have some consumer surveys that could be used in that effort. They need to be expanded and they need to be processed more quickly to make them more effective. What I have in mind is developing a better market basket measure, which ESDC is currently involved in, that could be differentiated around the country. However, then you do need to have more people on the ground from Statistics Canada to look at very small, localized areas to figure out what's needed.

Apart from that, we have a lot of administrative data from tax forms, the CPP, and all of these different programs. If we could find a better way to link those things together and make it more accessible to researchers, that is something that could take us pretty far, I think, in getting toward solutions.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

I think that's my time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

I think we have about two minutes, roughly, until the bells. Would anyone like to ask a final question?

Okay, we have two. We'll give maybe two minutes.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

I will go fast. I will ask my question in French, if you don't mind.

One of your solutions was to provide additional affordable housing. Do you think that housing should be adapted as well?

People who are aging in fact need adapted housing in order to remain in their homes and receive caregiver assistance.

The question is for everyone.

I think you were on that before.

[Richard Shillington]

There's not one population. It's not homogeneous. Some people are going to need caregivers. Some people are going to need a home. Some people want to stay home. Some people have grandchildren and want to stay home. We want to allow for people to make choices that fit their needs. Be aware of the average. The average is only the average.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Yes, we have to be very open.

We are in the middle of drafting new legislation to make Canada more accessible. It may be a good idea to create adapted housing not just for people with mobility issues, but also for the next generation of seniors. The new legislation should take into account not just affordable housing, but also adapted and adaptable housing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

Now we'll go to MP Blaney.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

I have a very simple question. Again, anyone can comment.

We mentioned that the OAS has a diminishing value. Do you have any recommendations on that? I heard about it a lot in my riding office.

[Richard Shillington]

Instead of indexing it to prices, which means its value relative to a poverty line like the low-income measure or its value as replacing x per cent of the individual's income, which by definition will diminish over time, index this to wages just like we index the RRSP limits. They're not indexed to prices; they're indexed to wages.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Madame Schirle, do you want to say something about that?

[Dr. Tammy Schirle]

Yes, I think that what Richard is getting at is looking at different ways of indexing old age security. I'm very concerned by suggestions about trying to come up with a senior-specific basket. I've heard this, and my concern there is that it would be very volatile. Things like food, energy, and household utilities could leave people's cheques bouncing around a lot. The research needs to be done to check that, but that's my big concern there.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

So you would stick to the current inflation rate?

[Dr. Tammy Schirle]

I would stick to the CPI , yes.