Human Resources Committee on Feb. 12th, 2018

[Lori Sterling]

I think you mentioned in your previous questions that technically speaking, all inspectors operate under a delegated authority of the minister. They delegate authority because the statute is the minister's, but in practice what happens is that the inspector, working with their regional director or, if necessary, with an assistant deputy minister, will issue the direction. In fact, they are so independent that I typically would not see a direction until later, and I might never see a direction, so the minister doesn't—

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

But the fact still remains that your briefing notes say that the minister can in fact step in and force compliance. That is the minister's action to take.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

The act is under the minister of labour's responsibility, but as Lori said, the authority to investigate is delegated to the inspectors.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

But at the end of the day, the minister does sign off on who those inspectors are, yes?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Sorry; the minister...?

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

The minister does sign off or give authority to who those investigators are, yes?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

No.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Who signs off, then?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

The investigators are hired independently of the minister. As I said, I've never met an investigator. I've never signed a piece of paper.

The department has a minister. As you know, all departments have a minister who has a piece of legislation that they're responsible for, but in fact there are very strong divides between the day-to-day operations of the department and the minister. Lori Sterling, the deputy, would be responsible for the day-to-day operations of the department of labour, including the hiring of investigators, including the management of her staff according to region, and including determining how in fact they would be applied to what cases.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you.

MP Trudel is next.

[Karine Trudel, NDP, Jonquière, QC]

I'd like to pick up on the definitions issue and our earlier discussion.

Bill C-65 does not set out definitions for harassment or violence, and that is a serious concern. The Canada Labour Code lays out a definition for the term sexual harassment only. That means the definitions do not appear in the bill, the Canada Labour Code, the Parliamentary Employment and Staff Relations Act, or the Budget Implementation Act, 2017, No. 1.

You gave a few examples. I'd like to know how employers and unions are going to be able to provide training and define what constitutes harassment in order to prevent it. You said that a touch on the shoulder could be considered harassment. If the point is to educate people, we need to define harassment so that people are able to recognize it.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I'm very interested to hear what your team would consider an appropriate definition of harassment, or the continuum of harassment all the way to violence.

As I said earlier, this was in no way intended to limit those definitions but rather to avoid a situation of the legislation having a definition that was too rigid, and then not being quick enough to respond to new forms of harassment. In fact, it would have to go through an entire legislative change. The intent was that through the regulatory process, we would develop definitions that would capture behaviours that are a part of that continuum of inappropriate workplace conduct. This could range from teasing and bullying all the way to physical violence, and the definition would include sexual harassment and sexual violence. It really was about trying to capture those in the regulations.

As I said to you and your colleagues in the debate at second reading, I'm not opposed to having a definition in the legislation, as long as it's broad enough that it would capture all forms of harassment and violence. If there is an amendment that comes forward with language that is broad enough to capture the full range of harassment all the way to violence, I don't have my heels dug in on that issue.

It really is about trying to make sure that the legislation is flexible enough to adapt, should there be some new way of harassing people. I think cyber-bullying is the example I gave earlier. That's a perfect example. It's nothing that any of us could have envisioned. Imagine if the legislation had been written 15 years ago, and didn't include the word “cyber-bullying”. Would that be captured by the legislation? Those are the questions.

I'll look forward to the suggestions about the definition. As I said, if it makes the law stronger and there's a strong consensus that we need that definition within the legislation, then I'm really looking forward to those suggestions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you everybody. Thank you, Minister, for being here today, and kicking this review of the legislation off for us.

We're going to suspend for a very brief five minutes to allow the department to come to the table.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Welcome back, everybody.

We've been joined by, from the Department of Employment and Social Development, Brenda Baxter, director general, workplace directorate, labour program, and Barbara Moran, director general, strategic policy, analysis and workplace, labour program. From Public Services and Procurement Canada, we have Charles Bernard, director general, portfolio and government affairs.

Welcome to all of you. You will each have 10 minutes for opening remarks, and then we'll follow up, obviously, with questions. You're looking at each other—10 minutes? Did we know we had that long? You don't need to use all your time. If you thought it was seven minutes or if you thought it was five, we'll go from there.

Barbara, do you have a question?

[Barbara Moran, Director General, Strategic Policy, Analysis and Workplace, Labour Program, Department of Employment and Social Development]

We actually weren't aware that we were to make introductory remarks, so we are open to taking your questions if that's okay with all of you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Fair enough. We can jump right in. We can skip the opening remarks.

We'll go directly to Mr. Blaney.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to pick up on a question I asked the minister earlier. I'd also like an explanation of the mechanics behind the process. At the Department of Employment and Social Development, what is the current structure for receiving complaints regarding workplace harassment and violence?

Could you tell us about any new resources that have been deployed? During the first hour of our meeting, it became clear that the bill would result in a surge of requests thanks to the heightened awareness around situations of harassment.

Describe for us, if you would, the structures currently in place at the department to deal with complaints?

[Barbara Moran]

The first thing I will mention is that in the current process, sexual harassment is dealt with under a different portion of the code. It's dealt with under part III of the code, which has different provisions and different requirements than does part II, which is occupational health and safety. It also applies to different workplaces.

On sexual harassment, for example, the requirement is that the employer have a policy in place. Any complaints that would come forward to the labour program would be limited to “Is there a policy?”, and that would be the extent of our ability to investigate that situation.

That's the first thing I would mention on sexual harassment. Currently there are violence provisions under part II, on occupational health and safety, and there is a process currently in place whereby there are certain requirements for employers and there is an ability for the department to undertake investigations.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thanks.

How many investigators do you have throughout the country to deal with those issues of policy related to harassment?

[Barbara Moran]

I'll turn to my colleague Brenda.

[Brenda Baxter, Director General, Workplace Directorate, Labour Program, Department of Employment and Social Development]

Currently under part II of the Canada Labour Code, on occupational health and safety, we have 97 health and safety officers across the country.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

They are spread throughout the country?

[Brenda Baxter]

Yes.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Okay.

I'm going to ask the same question I asked the minister.

Let's say I am an employee. I don't want to go to my employer because he's the one who has victimized me. I don't want to go through mediation because I've spoken to a lot of victims and they said this is just going to be going over it all again and this won't solve it, and I don't trust it. Can they go to you, and will they be able to go to you, and if so, are you prepared to receive their complaint?

[Barbara Moran]

Sure. Maybe the first thing I will mention is that when the legislation comes into force, the labour program will have the capacity to help both employers and employees through it. We're going to have an outreach hub that will provide support for employees in navigating the process, understanding their rights, and understanding the responsibilities of the employer, as well as helping them just generally navigate the process. That same outreach hub will be available for employers to be able to understand what their obligations are under the code as well.

That would be the first thing available to somebody who has experienced harassment. There will be somebody in the labour program who will be able to help them navigate the process.