Human Resources Committee on Feb. 21st, 2018

[Nathalie Dufresne-Meek]

In my opinion, we don't need to change the collective agreements. I think that the wording, as negotiated in the agreements, will correspond very well with the proposed bill. It will also be useful in ensuring that employees are protected, and it will give them a healthy and respectful workplace. This is why I don't necessarily see the need to change the collective agreements. It will be a good additional resource.

[Karine Trudel, NDP, Jonquière, QC]

After the bill is passed, and everything is set up in your organization, would it not be appropriate to confirm a transition with the union?

[Nathalie Dufresne-Meek]

We will certainly have to make necessary changes.

Currently, we have two teams working in tandem: one that is specialized in harassment, and, the other, in preventing workplace violence, leading investigations, and the rest. A transition will be necessary, because we will probably consider merging these teams to produce what may be an even more consolidated approach to managing these programs. Furthermore, we are expecting a probable increase, and we must examine the situation in consequence to determine the workload, and so on.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you.

Now, for six minutes, MP Dabrusin.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you.

I'm happy with where it ended, because that was exactly one of the questions I wanted to pick up on with the others. We are considering a new piece of legislation. What are the challenges as you make the transition? What additional resources are required to make those changes?

You mentioned some issues with finding investigators, and that type of thing. I think you've already started to answer that. Perhaps we could start on your end and work across.

[Marc Thibodeau]

There is one change that relates to volume we'll have to monitor and see how we respond to it. I don't think, as my colleague was pointing out, that the collective agreements would need to be changed. The changes are going to be in the practice.

I think the successful implementation of the legislation is going to rest in the communication: making sure that individuals understand the potential remedy based on the mechanism they use and ensuring that there is no confusion between the various avenues of redress in terms of what it is intended to cover and address, and what the potential outcome is.

[A/Commr Stephen White]

For us, it depends on what unfolds with regard to the regulations. As you've heard from us, we have our internal processes. With harassment, for example, if there is a move toward doing external, independent-type investigations of harassment for departments, that would impact our internal system, obviously. I guess the thing I would put out for consideration is the capacity that would be required externally to do that.

I would add on—and I've heard it a number of times here today—the independence of those investigations. There's no doubt that if a person submits a harassment complaint, if the complaint is investigated, even if it's not founded as harassment, the fact that an independent investigator or entity has done that and made the decision, I think, adds significant credibility because they are external to or outside the organization.

I know we're not there yet, but if that is going to be the way this proceeds and unfolds, definitely they would need to have the right capacity to do it, because it would be of significance.

[Don Graham]

I believe one of the requirements of the bill was going to be that employers would have to come up with a prevention of harassment and violence policy. That policy is going to have to be developed in collaboration with workplace health and safety committees, usually dealing with the union. There is going to be this aspect of having to work through this with them. There's going to be this partnership, hopefully, in coming up with policies to cover it in the workplace.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you.

Ultimately, we want to aim for prevention. What we want is for no one to actually have to use any of these processes we're discussing in so much detail today.

Several of you have mentioned training as one of the things that you have there. Do you have any statistics as to how effective the training is? For example, when allegations are made, how often is it that the person against whom allegations are made has been through the training process?

[A/Commr Stephen White]

We haven't necessarily measured it against that metric, but I'm confident, given a lot of the things I've seen, that the more education, the more awareness you do around it, the more messaging you put out that the organization is receptive and welcoming to victims or complainants coming forward, you will see an increased number of in employees coming forward with complaints.

I'll give an example on the mental health side. Over the last few years we've made it mandatory for every employee in our organization to take, in-person, our road to mental readiness training. We're up to about 24,000 now. I am very confident that we are starting to see a change in our organization with regard to the stigma around mental health. A lot more people are now coming forward seeking help and support for mental health, because we have done that awareness. We've done that training, and we're trying to create an atmosphere that says we are a compassionate and welcoming organization with regard to mental health. I think that would be the same with any type of activity, whether it be harassment or other things as well.

I would think your numbers would increase, the more awareness education you do.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Does anybody else have any comments about the effectiveness of training and how to make sure it's effective?

[Kathleen Clarkin]

Again, from what the informal discussion group of practitioners have said, they definitely see an influx in inquiries and questions any time any training has happened. A lot of best practices are to do a follow-up with anybody who has participated in training and remind them of contacts and what's there, and to make the linkages because it's not always harassment. Maybe they want informal conflict management services to help work through difficult situations. Maybe they want help in reminding folks about civility in the workplace and how people want to be treated.

Those dialogues are all very helpful in the prevention aspect, in that we now better understand what's expected of us and are more self-aware of how our actions and behaviour impact others. It's difficult to quantify, but again, we hear very positive feedback from the practitioners across government.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much. That concludes three full rounds. We don't really have enough time to do another whole round, and I think everybody is okay with that.

I want to thank all of you for being here today. This is the first day of our study of this legislation, and I think you really helped us get off to a good start, on a good footing.

Thank you all very much for being here. Thank you to my colleagues and to everybody who made today possible. We will be adjourning but coming back here for a briefing shortly.

Thank you very much. We are adjourned.