Evidence of meeting #92 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was definition.
A recording is available from Parliament.
8:05 p.m.
Co-Founder and Co-Managing Partner, Rubin Thomlinson LLP
Yes, I absolutely do, and if you've got the opportunity in this bill to include that, I would strongly encourage you to do so.
8:05 p.m.
Prof. Katherine Lippel
Training is absolutely essential. The most important thing, however—and we have seen this in Ontario—is not to think that we can wash our hands of it once there is a policy. She talked a bit about that.
If the training is bogus, that does solve the problem either. It must be real training, suited to the needs of both small and large workplaces, and in keeping with the priorities of each sector.
8:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bryan May
Thirty seconds. You're good?
That's the end of the second round. We do have some time. If those who desire to have a final question, maybe a four-minute question? Yes?
We'll start over with MP Morrissey.
February 28th, 2018 / 8:05 p.m.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Thank you, Chair. I'm going to split my time with my colleague, Pam.
For my question, I want to go back to Ms. Thomlinson. Do you feel the bill, as it's currently drafted, gives equal protection to an employee in a small business, small employment organization and a large one? Does it give equal protection to that person or access to making a complaint, as well as equal protection to the employing authority?
8:05 p.m.
Co-Founder and Co-Managing Partner, Rubin Thomlinson LLP
In referencing the employee authority, are you referring to the employer?
8:05 p.m.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
The person who would be making the complaint....In a small work environment versus a large one, does that person get treated equally as the bill is presently drafted in making the complaint process as the employee in a large corporation?
8:05 p.m.
Co-Founder and Co-Managing Partner, Rubin Thomlinson LLP
Let me try to answer it this way. I think the bill as it's currently drafted is inadequate to address employees at all-sized organizations.
When you look at, for example, the requirement that people report to their supervisor, that may have a disproportionately more unfair effect on smaller organizations where there are fewer people, but I think the effect is the same, frankly, in any organization because if my only avenue of recourse is to report to my supervisor, and they're either the harasser or someone I don't feel comfortable reporting to, I have no other avenue, whether I'm in a big company or a small company.
8:10 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
I just have one question. We have focused a lot on federal employers, but I want to specifically talk about MPs' offices. Basically, someone who came to the committee said we have 338 small businesses.
In terms of the legislation that we have in front of us right now, are there any specific recommendations that you would make to change the legislation as it applies to the MPs' offices to give better protection to the staff?
I see that you do.
8:10 p.m.
Project Director, National Association of Women and the Law
On this exact topic, having a requirement that the first complaint go to the supervisor when it's an MP in a very small office obviously presents a very difficult situation for complainants. I think that has to be given very specific consideration.
One of the points that we tried to raise in our submission is that the explicitly political nature of the way in which the Hill works and the perception and/or reality of partisanship being at play in the investigation and/or resolution of complaints really speaks to the need for neutral, independent persons to be in charge of the investigation and the decision-making. It may be very particularly important for parliamentary and political staff to have the reassurance of confidentiality and independence in the entire process of complaint-making and in the decision-making.
8:10 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Do you think that should be specified right in the bill?
8:10 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
We should put the independent aspect right in the bill.
8:10 p.m.
Conservative
Steven Blaney Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC
Thank you.
I would just like to clarify something that I said.
We talked earlier about a “designated person”, that is, a trusted person to whom an employee who is the victim of harassment can turn.
Ms. Lippel, you are suggesting an amendment to section 127.1 of the Canada Labour Code, which is entitled “Internal Complaint Resolution Process”, and involves the supervisor. It is on page 3 of your presentation.
Are you suggesting that the complaint should be filed with the designated person? Is that really what you are suggesting, rather than going straight to a third party, as Ms. Thomlinson suggested?
I would like to hear your thoughts on that.
8:10 p.m.
Prof. Katherine Lippel
The complaint could be made to a trusted person, either someone who has been appointed jointly and on a permanent basis, in the case of a large organization, or an outside party. It is very clear to me that the complaint must not be made to the supervisor.
8:10 p.m.
Conservative
Steven Blaney Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC
That would be better because we must not go in that direction.
8:10 p.m.
Prof. Katherine Lippel
It must not be the supervisor.
8:10 p.m.
Conservative
Steven Blaney Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC
Shouldn't “designated person” also be defined then? The definition of “employee's supervisor” is clear, but the concept of a “designated person” should also be defined.
8:10 p.m.
Prof. Katherine Lippel
It could be a designated person or a joint committee that is appointed, but one that specializes in harassment and violence. It could be a member of that pre-selected committee. I would rely more on the witnesses you have already heard as to what would be more effective in practical terms. Does it have to be one person? I do not think it has to be one person necessarily. That is the Belgian model. The Canadian or Quebec model...
8:10 p.m.
Conservative
Steven Blaney Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC
The Belgian model refers to a trusted person.
8:10 p.m.
Prof. Katherine Lippel
It refers to a trusted person, exactly.
8:10 p.m.
Conservative
Steven Blaney Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC
Ms. Landry, you have worked in the area of harassment. In your opinion, should the act direct the person who wishes to make a complaint to turn first to their supervisor, or should the person turn first to...?
