Human Resources Committee on May 15th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Ms. Larouche.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Next we have Ms. Kwan for six minutes, please.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for coming to our committee.

With respect to seniors and the long-term care situation, 82% of the COVID-19 deaths are in long-term care. To that end, while it is a provincial jurisdiction, I think we also have a federal responsibility as well. Would the minister agree that we need to set national standards and that the federal government should work with the provinces on a care guarantee and also properly fund health care services in transfer payments to all the provinces and territories?

[Deb Schulte, Liberal, King—Vaughan, ON]

As I mentioned before, this is probably a question that the committee should be inviting the Minister of Health to come and address. I am working in partnership with her to support the requests from the provinces for long-term care.

I've been talking to my colleagues in the provinces and territories to determine what assistance they need from us right now, because it is a crisis. It's not a crisis across the country. B.C. started off with an issue, and they took fast action—

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you, Minister. Sorry, I don't have that much time.

My question is for you, as the Minister of Seniors. Are you at the cabinet table, the cabinet committee table, advocating for a national standard and for a care guarantee in long-term care delivery for seniors across the provinces?

[Deb Schulte, Liberal, King—Vaughan, ON]

I'm going to have to defer this question to the Minister of Health. I am working with her at this time to address the crisis today that we're seeing in some provinces with regard to long-term care.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

What I'm hearing from you, Minister, is that you have no opinion on this, and you're not confirming that you're advocating for seniors, so what is the Minister of Seniors doing? I have to ask that question, because that worries me greatly. If you're the Minister of Seniors, I would hope that you're at that table advocating for seniors, for national standards and guaranteed care systems for all seniors across the country.

I'd like to turn to another issue, and that is the new announcement. The NDP pushed the government to come in with support for seniors and people with disabilities. That happened in the House, and the government made the announcement recently. The government actually set a standard for CERB, demonstrating the understanding that Canadians need at least $2,000 a month to survive, yet seniors on fixed low incomes only got one-time payments in the announcements, as well as the GST. With many of the community resources closed due to COVID-19, the cost of living for seniors has increased, and they're struggling more than ever.

My question is this: Is the minister advocating at the table for low-income seniors to actually have their income topped up to $2,000 each month—not just one-time payments, but each month?

[Deb Schulte, Liberal, King—Vaughan, ON]

There's quite a lot in your question to unpack. I just want to go back to the first point you made.

You can be darn sure that, as the Minister of Seniors and as a member of the COVID-19 committee, I am advocating very strongly that we support seniors in every way we can during this challenging time.

To address the issue you raised in terms of what we're doing for low-income seniors, I will say that, yes, we did support low- to modest-income seniors, along with other Canadians, with a GST top-up that came to $375—

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Sorry, Minister, we heard that part already. If you're advocating at the table, then can you confirm for the committee that you support national standards for long-term care for seniors, and that you support a care guarantee for all seniors across the country?

[Deb Schulte, Liberal, King—Vaughan, ON]

What I can assure you is that we are addressing the urgent needs that are arising right now in long-term care. We are working in partnership with the provinces and territories, and we will be working with the provinces and territories after we get through this crisis to do an assessment of what needs to be done and how we can work together to get that done.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

It was a fairly straightforward question for the minister about whether or not she supports a guaranteed care system for seniors, and I did not hear an answer from the minister on that.

With regard to the CERB.... What the government has provided is a one-time funding for seniors. Seniors need this on an ongoing basis. We just heard previously the question about increasing the pension for seniors, and the government has parked that now because of COVID-19. Especially in light of that, shouldn't we actually, during this COVID pandemic, support seniors, recognizing that the minimum standard that the government has set with CERB is $2,000 a month to survive? Shouldn't seniors be treated the same? Why are they being treated as second-class citizens?

[Deb Schulte, Liberal, King—Vaughan, ON]

I want to remind the member that seniors are continuing to receive their benefits during this pandemic. Those who are on CERB have lost their income and don't have any.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Yes, but what I'm talking about is a top-up, though.

[Deb Schulte, Liberal, King—Vaughan, ON]

Seniors are in a different situation; they are already getting their benefits. What we have done is make sure that we got the money as quickly as possible into the hands of those low-income, vulnerable seniors, rather than give a small amount trickled out over many months. We made sure that we got it into their hands as quickly as possible, and this is in addition to the money they're already getting through their benefits. It's like putting apples and oranges together; it's not the same.

However, we did make CERB available to working seniors, because we know that many seniors are working later in life, so if they lost their jobs due to COVID-19, then they will also get the CERB.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

But they're—

[Deb Schulte, Liberal, King—Vaughan, ON]

The CERB is available to working seniors as well who have lost their jobs due to COVID-19.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

There is a difference, Minister. It's one-time funding versus ongoing monthly support.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Next we have Mrs. Kusie for five minutes.

Mrs. Kusie, you have the floor.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here today. It's so nice to see you here healthy and well.

In your announcement this week, you indicated, of course, that you're providing a one-time increase to OAS and GIS, but many seniors receiving these payments aren't struggling financially due to COVID-19, given that seniors can receive OAS with an annual taxable income of up to $128,137. As Conservatives, we're very concerned about the deficit coming out of this. We're already at $252 billion, with a debt of $1 trillion. My colleague previously indicated that we have put forward policy options regarding both RRIFs and RRSPs.

Following an idea that we have seen in major media this week after your announcement.... The Globe and Mail, as well as academics out of the University of Waterloo, for example.... What is the rationale for providing this tax-free benefit so broadly, including to high-income seniors who may not be experiencing financial hardship?

[Deb Schulte, Liberal, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you very much for that question. It is an important one.

Those who are on old age security, OAS, with an income of up to $80,000 will receive the full amount of old age security. Above that, they would have normally gotten a claw-back. That is 7% of the seniors who are on old age security. Just to make that clear, 6.7 million seniors are on old age security, and the majority of those, 93%, are living under the $80,000 cut-off limit.

I'm saying that it's not a lot of money. You're making it sound like rich people are getting this benefit. There is a very small number of people who may be getting this and who are deemed to be in more well-off circumstances, but the majority—as I said, over 90%—are seniors who are trying to cope with these additional costs that are making it difficult for them to put food on the table and make ends meet.

There are statistics and information that we've been getting about the incredible rise of seniors going to the food bank just to try to get enough food on the table, and they can't pay for the medicines they need. The most important thing was to get a payment as quickly as possible into the hands of those seniors who were struggling, and that was the objective of the government. It's why we had the one-time payment option go to old age security recipients and guaranteed income supplement recipients, so we didn't have to make them apply. You've already heard from some of your other committee members where some of those challenges are. We wanted to get it into the hands of the seniors.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

But, Minister, why did you not decide to target low-income seniors at this time, by providing an increase only through GIS payments?

[Deb Schulte, Liberal, King—Vaughan, ON]

Well, we've done both. We've addressed those who are facing additional costs and struggling, and we've definitely given more money to those who are at a lower income. Those are people who are living on an income of under $18,600 yearly. They are on a guaranteed income supplement, so they are getting more. They're getting an additional $200. For a couple on guaranteed income supplements, that totals over $1,000 to help them get through the additional costs and cope with the COVID pandemic.

I'm not sure if the officials would like to chime in and give any more information. I'm certainly thinking that might be helpful.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

We'll certainly have time for that in the second round, Minister. Thank you.

Something that has been of great concern to me is the Service Canada phone system, which has been overwhelmed for months with long wait times and an inability of people to get through. Absolutely, it inadvertently impacts seniors, as, for many, the phone is their only form of communication right now. Since Service Canada centres are closed, it makes it more difficult for seniors; and many seniors, of course, aren't comfortable using the Internet.

I'm wondering what you've done to ensure that seniors have received timely access to Service Canada so that they can access the benefits they need.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Please give a short answer, Minister.